The Match-Mark Frost

[David Stamm]

David:

Come on, you read Greatest Game and you would classify it as non-fiction?  You sincerely believe Frost had access to the inner thoughts of Ouimet as he played that tournament?

 

I never said I classify it as such. I don't recall the attempt by Frost to try to convey Ouimet's thoughts. I'm not saying he did not, I just don't remember it. If he did, then I agree, he shouldn't try to pass it off as non-fiction. Either way, it was enjoyable to read.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

You claimed yourself to be in the category I stated, which lead me to ask my questions.  Because as I recall, there was darn near constant "I was thinking this" stuff from all the characters in Greatest Game, all of whom have been dead for quite a few years.

Thus the oddity to me that anyone could claim that as non-fiction.

But I too found it a very enjoyable read!  

TH

[David Stamm]

David:

You claimed yourself to be in the category I stated, which lead me to ask my questions.  

Hey, any chance I can self-deprecate.........

[Pat Howard]

Tommy, I must say that subtitle is turning me off from the book as well.  That being said, it was excerpted in one of the golf magazines recently and I enjoyed that read.  But I'm also wondering how a match between two great ams and two old pros at a private club with few witnesses changed the game of golf forever.  I have a feeling Frost tells us.  I'm just not sure I'm as inclined to agree with this as I was that the Ouimet US Open was golf's greatest game....

TH

Tom,

The magazine snippet you referred to is the reason I picked the book up and it was hard to put down!

Frost's notion that it was "The day the game of golf changed forever" is definitely debatable, but what he was trying to get at is that it was the day that the pendulum swung in favor of the golf Pro. Several times throughout the book he gives examples of how poorly professionals used to be treated, how little money there was to play for as a Pro and how noble it was to be an Amateur golfer. According to Frost, this all changed with Hogan & Nelson's narrow victory over the two excellent Ams.

Weather you buy into it or not, the book was great reading!

[George Pazin]

Yeah, we all know how no one respected Sarazen.

Too bad he didn't do anything for the game like hit a defining shot maybe 20 years before said match, a shot that launched a new major.

Too bad no one respected Nelson and Hogan as pros prior to the match, that match definitely ushered in the new world.

 

That might be the single most idiotic inference from a minor sporting event I've ever heard.

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat - OK, I get it now.  But man I gotta say I'm with my friend George on this - wow does that seem WAY off chronoligically.

I do still want to read the book though.  Dan King has principles, I just want to have fun.

 

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

Frost's notion that it was "The day the game of golf changed forever" is definitely debatable, but what he was trying to get at is that it was the day that the pendulum swung in favor of the golf Pro. Several times throughout the book he gives examples of how poorly professionals used to be treated, how little money there was to play for as a Pro and how noble it was to be an Amateur golfer. According to Frost, this all changed with Hogan & Nelson's narrow victory over the two excellent Ams.

Weather you buy into it or not, the book was great reading!

Pat,

If you put the clock back twenty years or more you might have a point. The Amateur game was at its zenith in the twenties, certainly not when this game took place. Do you really think that Hogan and Nelson were anything other than icons at the time of the match?

George Coleman's daughter lives in Pebble Beach for a few months a year and I'll ask her if she has any recollection of the match, or notes written by her father. Sara was a very good golfer herself and surprisingly, had a lesson from Hogan.

Bob

[Pat Howard]

Tom,

Frost's notion that it was "The day the game of golf changed forever" is definitely debatable, but what he was trying to get at is that it was the day that the pendulum swung in favor of the golf Pro. Several times throughout the book he gives examples of how poorly professionals used to be treated, how little money there was to play for as a Pro and how noble it was to be an Amateur golfer. According to Frost, this all changed with Hogan & Nelson's narrow victory over the two excellent Ams.

Weather you buy into it or not, the book was great reading!

Do you really think that Hogan and Nelson were anything other than icons at the time of the match?

Hogan won the triple in 1953, only three years prior to the match! I agree that Nelson was past his prime being out of competitive golf for 10 years but to say that Hogan was merely an icon at this point is just plain stupid. Go try and shoot a 63 anywhere and then we'll talk...

[George Pazin]

I don't think Mr. Huntley meant Hogan was MERELY an icon, he meant Hogan WAS AN ICON. Your earlier summary of Mr. Frost's thoughts seems to imply that Hogan and Nelson were merely aging pros.

[Pat Howard]

I made no mention of age or diminished skills of Hogan & Nelson.

[Dan Kelly]

Thank you, George.

I'll talk with you and Mr. Huntley anytime. Shooting 63 not required!

[George Pazin]

I made no mention of age or diminished skills of Hogan & Nelson.

I'm not saying you did - I'm saying you misunderstand Mr. Huntley calling them icons. You're acting with outrage, while I am quite certain he is paying them their due respect by asking if they were anything other than icons.

The other part is my interpretation of your view of Mr. Frost's view of the match - how's that for hearsay!

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

Frost's notion that it was "The day the game of golf changed forever" is definitely debatable, but what he was trying to get at is that it was the day that the pendulum swung in favor of the golf Pro. Several times throughout the book he gives examples of how poorly professionals used to be treated, how little money there was to play for as a Pro and how noble it was to be an Amateur golfer. According to Frost, this all changed with Hogan & Nelson's narrow victory over the two excellent Ams.

Weather you buy into it or not, the book was great reading!

Do you really think that Hogan and Nelson were anything other than icons at the time of the match?

Hogan won the triple in 1953, only three years prior to the match! I agree that Nelson was past his prime being out of competitive golf for 10 years but to say that Hogan was merely an icon at this point is just plain stupid. Go try and shoot a 63 anywhere and then we'll talk...

Pat, what don't you understand about that sentence? As for Nelson being superannuated he could play equally as well as most of the players of his time long after his putative retirement. Watch his pummelling of a then recent US Open Champion, Gene Littler, at Pine Valley on WWOG.

The stupid remark should not be aimed at me..... I'll talk golf and its history with you at any time and certainly in a relaxed and courteous manner.  

Bob

[Pat Howard]

Bob & George,

I obviously misunderstood Bob's statement about Hogan and Nelson being icons of the sport at the time of the match, thus my defending Hogan's round at Cypress.

And I wasn't calling you stupid Bob; I've never even met you. I thought that calling Hogan merely an icon shortly after his most successful season was pretty foolish, but I realize that wasn't your intent.

After all this, I hope you guys do take the time and read the book, it's quite entertaining. Fact or Fiction!

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob & George,


And I wasn't calling you stupid Bob; I've never even met you. I thought that calling Hogan merely an icon shortly after his most successful season was pretty foolish, but I realize that wasn't your intent.

Pat,

I do not want to flog a dead horse but I am puzzled as to your use of the term "merely an icon." From my school days in studying the classics in both in both Greek and Latin, an icon was the object of uncritical devotion: as in idol.

Hogan and Nelson qualified as such.

Bob

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob & George,


And I wasn't calling you stupid Bob; I've never even met you. I thought that calling Hogan merely an icon shortly after his most successful season was pretty foolish, but I realize that wasn't your intent.

Pat,

I do not want to flog a dead horse but I am puzzled as to your use of the term "merely an icon." From my school days in studying the classics in both in both Greek and Latin, an icon was the object of uncritical devotion: as in idol.

Hogan and Nelson qualified as such.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

From the American heritage dictionary, 3rd definition of "icon":

One who is the object of great attention and devotion; an idol: "He is ... a pop icon designed and manufactured for the video generation" (Harry F. Waters).

It's hard to deny that either Hogan or Nelson were such at the time of "the match."

Just understand his use of the word "merely" as more meaning "after all."  That is, "they were icons after all".

But of course George already said this!

TH

[Dan King]

Pat Howard writes:
Frost's notion that it was "The day the game of golf changed forever" is definitely debatable, but what he was trying to get at is that it was the day that the pendulum swung in favor of the golf Pro. Several times throughout the book he gives examples of how poorly professionals used to be treated, how little money there was to play for as a Pro and how noble it was to be an Amateur golfer. According to Frost, this all changed with Hogan & Nelson's narrow victory over the two excellent Ams.

That is one bizarre thesis. He either has to do some really heavy lifting to support his thesis (which would be interesting) or he'll have to make up a lot of facts to support it (much less interesting.) It sure seems like he is a couple generations late for his marker between the pro and am game.

Here are some projects Mr. Frost could take on next:

Winning the U.S. Open with Old Man Par: The Sam Snead Story

Fred "Mr. Overachiever" Couples

Tom Champagne Weiskopf: Fun and Games on the PGA Tour

Michelle Wie: The Female Jackie Robinson Story

John Daly: Health and Happiness on the Road

The Bruce Lietzke Story: The More I Practice the Luckier I get

Zen Golf: The Tommy Bolt Way

Cheers,
Dan King

The amateur was THE tournament in those days. It was widely considered to have the best players while the pro game was doomed to be played by guys whose options would have been bootblacks or pool hustlers if they hadn't stumbled onto a golf course. The notion that no gentleman ever plays too well died hard.
 --Jim Murray

[Bill Shamleffer]

It does seem that quite a few different points in time get credited as when the pendulum swung from the amateur game being supreme in the public's eye, to the professional game taking over supremacy.

In TOMMY'S HONOR, the author seems to believe that after Young Tom Morris's reign the pros replaced the amateurs as being supreme and that afterwards the amateurs where secondary.

One of the shocking aspects of the 1913 US Open is that an amateur beat the pros.

After Bobby Jones retired, it has been said the significance of the amateur in golf plummeted.

Supposedly the 1950s with Billy Joe Patton, Harvey Ward, Venturie, and others was the end of the glory days of amateur golf.

[Brent Hutto]

When it comes to describing weeks or months of leadup to a game involving long-dead golfers, there are two choices of what kind of book to write. You can write one that only contains verifiable, factually impeccable statements...or you can write a book that people might actually read and enjoy.

The ideal of course would be an interesting story with verifiable, factually impeccable dialogue and internal streams of consciousness. That ideal can never exist.

I had the feeling that Frost (a television screenwriter for goodness sake) went far beyond the call of duty with his embellishments in the Greatest Game book but degrees of non-factualness are just as slippery as degrees of being pregnant, no?

[Pat Howard]

Bob,

When I use the term 'icon' I guess I'm thinking of someone who has achieved great fame or success but isn't necessarily still active in the game. Perhaps this is incorrect though because I wouldn't hesitate to call Tiger Woods an icon and he's still at the top of his game. Maybe the term 'legend' would have been a better description.

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat - read the definition - icon most definitely does not mean someone inactive.  The icon CAN be, for sure - but he doesn't have to be.  Each of Palmer, Nicklaus and Woods are icons in the game of golf.

"Legend" connotes inactivity far more than "icon"... and thus to me would be a much better description of Nicklaus or Palmer than Woods at this point in time.

I have fun with words - can you tell?

 

[George Pazin]

So, Huck, I guess that makes you an icon and Matt Ward a legend.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

So, Huck, I guess that makes you an icon and Matt Ward a legend.

 

LOL!
In the strange world of GCA I suppose there is some truth to that.  I just need more contact with my legions of fans to get me to really believe it.  I am still active in any case, and Matt's not.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

I am still active in any case, and Matt's not.

Didn't I see Matt here yesterday, doing some heavy posting on that Sebonack thread?

Of course, it had been a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggg time since I'd seen him, pardner.

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