The Match-Mark Frost

[David Stamm]

I just finished reading Frost's newest book and it's very good. It tells the tale of the famous match at CPC between Venturi and Ward vs Hogan and Nelson. I remember years back Venturi telling this story and it always stuck in my mind. It's a great read and it's a unbelievable story. You can't make stuff like this up. That's all I'll tell you. It came out on Wed. so go out and get it! Wonderful fall time reading!

[Chuck Brown]

I can't wait.  It seems to me, without having yet seen a copy, that it is undoubtedly going to be "one of those books I wish I had written."  I'm sure that it will resonate with all kinds of history, going back through the line of Eddie Lowry to Francis Ouimet, and forward through the remarkable rollercoaster life and amateur (or not-so-amateur) career of Harvie Ward.  (I'll be forever grateful to have met Ward at the Country Club of North Carolina before he died.  And to Ken Venturi for his contribution to this book.)

[Dan Smoot]

I did enjoy "The Greatest Game ..." and would look forward to reading something about this famous match.  Is there really enough new material to write a book?  What hasn't been said about these players except for Ward.  Is Venturi his only source?

[wsmorrison]

I just returned from the bookstore with two books: The Match and Tommy's Honor  No I've got some bedtime reading for the next week or so.

[Michael Moore]

I see that the full title is The Match: The Day the Game of Golf Changed Forever.

It seems that these days every popular history book has to have a boastful subtitle.

Cod: A Biography of the Fish That the Changed the World

The Potato: How the Humble Spud Rescued the Western World

Thermopylae - The Battle that Changed the World

Galapagos - The Islands that Changed the World

The Riddle of the Compass - The Invention that Changed the World

Box Boats - How Container Ships Changed the World

Mauve - How One Man Invented a Color the Changed the World

Tea - The Drink That Changed the World

Here's a few I'd like to see -

Mutton - The Snack That Changed the World

Stirrup - The Thing That Hangs Down From Your Saddle That Changed The World

Barbarians - The Assholes Who Changed the World

[Dan King]

David Stamm writes:
You can't make stuff like this up.

But I bet it won't keep Mr. Frost from making stuff up. When facts didn't match the story he wanted to tell in The Greatest Game he just made stuff up.

Somewhere on one of my bookcases I have Salt: A World History by Mark Kurlansky. I haven't read it yet, but I liked the subtitle.

Cheers,
Dan King

I remember playing the match and how excited Ken [Venturi] and I  were to be playing [Ben] Hogan and [Byron] Nelson. I know we played some fantastic golf that day, all of us, but I don't remember much else.
 --Harvey Ward (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)

[David Stamm]

David Stamm writes:
You can't make stuff like this up.

But I bet it won't keep Mr. Frost from making stuff up. When facts didn't match the story he wanted to tell in The Greatest Game he just made stuff up.

Somewhere on one of my bookcases I have Salt: A World History by Mark Kurlansky. I haven't read it yet, but I liked the subtitle.

Cheers,
Dan King

I remember playing the match and how excited Ken [Venturi] and I  were to be playing [Ben] Hogan and [Byron] Nelson. I know we played some fantastic golf that day, all of us, but I don't remember much else.
 --Harvey Ward (on the 1956 match between amateurs Venturi and Ward against legends Hogan and Nelson at Cypress Point)

Dan, I don't know if Mark took liberties or not, but he references Venturi as his main source of info along with Nelson before he passed away. All of the details of the match itself in the book is the way I heard Venturi tell it some years ago. I enjoyed Frosts other 2 books as well. I can't say if they are factual in every sense, but I enjoyed them.



Wayne, you'll enjoy Tommy's Honor as well. Very good read. Enjoy them both and I would very much like to hear what you think.

[hhuffines]

Chuck,

I always enjoyed the opportunity to talk with Ole Harv when I
saw him in Pinehurst.  Actually took a lesson at Pine Needles from him and spent more time listening to his stories on topics
like "the match" than worrying with my swing.  Great Pinehurst memory for me!

Hart

[Dan King]

Mark Frost and his The Greatest Game Ever Played: Harry Vardon, Francis Ouimet, and the Birth of Modern Golf have been discussed a number of times in this forum. It seems there are people that believe it is okay to make up facts as long as you are entertaining. There are others -- including me -- who believe if you are going to call yourself non-fiction you owe it to your reader to do research and attempt to get things right.

Discussion from January 2003

Discussion from December 2004 - January 2005

Cheers,
Dan King

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 --George Santayana

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan - those previous discussions bring back some great stuff.

Just one question - does Frost or do others truly call these books as non-fiction?

They're so obviously best guesses (at best) in terms of the details that it just continues to surprise me that anyone would call them non-fiction, with a straight face anyway.

I mean really, when a writer is quoting thoughts from a guy's head, how can it be non-fiction?

TH

[Jim Nugent]

Huck, I don't disagree.  Didn't Bob Woodward do the same thing in some of his books?  

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck, I don't disagree.  Didn't Bob Woodward do the same thing in some of his books?  

It's a sad admission but I never read any of those... whereas I have read all of the Harry Potter books and too many golf books to count!

But I gather those have the same "issue" as these?  That is, people see them as nonfiction when they really shouldn't?

Oh well... in that case, dealing with matters of national import, it might be kinda dangerous, so that's likely not good.  In this case, as long as he doesn't offend the heirs of the participants or the participants themselves if they are still alive (and I gather they all support his work), then I continue to see no great harm in all of this.  But the last thing I want is to argue this with Dan King again.... I do absolutely believe that if one is to sell non-fiction, one does need to get things correct.

I just do honestly question if these Frost books are sold as non-fiction... and if they are, well... that just says it all about never underselling the stupidity of the buying public.

 

[David Stamm]

Huck, I don't disagree.  Didn't Bob Woodward do the same thing in some of his books?  

 
I just do honestly question if these Frost books are sold as non-fiction... and if they are, well... that just says it all about never underselling the stupidity of the buying public.

 

I guess that would be me then......

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Come on, you read Greatest Game and you would classify it as non-fiction?  You sincerely believe Frost had access to the inner thoughts of Ouimet as he played that tournament?

I haven't read the book about the Cypress match, though I do look forward to it.  Perhaps that one is closer to non-fiction given he took it directly from interviews with Venturi.

My point remains though that calling Greatest Game non-fiction is not only silly but illogical.  If Frost does so, then shame on him.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

I have as yet not read the book but look forward to doing so.
I shall be on the lookout for the possible stain of fiction.

For the record I have played golf with Eddie Lowery, he was a friend and client and  also one of my sponsors for membership to the R&A. We discussed the match in question on a number of occasions. I also played with Harvie Ward some thirty-six years ago but he didn't seem to remember or care very much about it. All he wanted to do on that day, was to make Art Bell sink the shortest of putts. One of the most genial of men ever.

Bob










Bob

[Dan Kelly]

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 --George Santayana

Dan --

How many times are they doomed to repeat it?

Dan

[John_Cullum]

Does Frost have the part in there about Ken Venturi's cell phone ringing just as he was perplexed over his approach on the 10th hole only to be bailed out by Tom Doak fortuitously calling with the proper strategy

[Dan Kelly]

Does Frost have the part in there about Ken Venturi's cell phone ringing just as he was perplexed over his approach on the 10th hole only to be bailed out by Tom Doak fortuitously calling with the proper strategy

Oh, that's just pure fiction -- and you know it!

It was Michael Bamberger calling -- from somewhere (he couldn't say exactly where) on the Old Course.

Bamberger's call was interrupted by a call from Doak to Bamberger, letting him know where he (Bamberger) was.

As it happens, Doak's call to Bamberger was interrupted by a call from me to Doak. I was just calling to say that I hoped to play one of his courses someday.

My call to Doak was interrupted by a call from Mark Frost -- wondering if I had any insights into the differences between fiction and non-fiction.

And that's the truth!

[Dan King]

Dan Kelly writes:
Dan --

How many times are they doomed to repeat it?

Dan

Dan --

Six.

Dan

Tom Huckaby writes:
Come on, you read Greatest Game and you would classify it as non-fiction?  You sincerely believe Frost had access to the inner thoughts of Ouimet as he played that tournament?

The publisher (Hyperion Books) used to have a blurb on the book and called it nonfiction. From Publishers Weekly (which generally comes from the publisher): "This first nonfiction effort by Frost, who is a novelist (The List of Seven), television producer (Twin Peaks) and scriptwriter (Hill Street Blues), deftly tells the story behind the legendary 1913 U.S. Open"

It is possible to report on inner thoughts if you had access to the person who had the inner thought or someone who got the information second hand. Even assuming they are wrong about the inner thoughts, it is still preferable to making them up and calling it non fiction.

Cheers,
Dan King

My connection to the past, like any Historian's, is through the stuff that's left behind. It's not an imaginative connection, although imagination is part of it. It's about documents , it's about sources, it's about clues, it's about the leavings, the shards, the remnants of people who once live and don't live anymore. Without the documents, there's no history. And women left very few documents behind.
 --Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan:

So OK, they are all wrong to call this non-fiction; we agreed on that two years ago.

Given there's no way Frost could have had access to Ouimet, I find the whole thing still very odd.

And I still enjoyed the book!

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly writes:
Dan --

How many times are they doomed to repeat it?

Dan

Dan --

Six.

Dan

Dan --

I'm afraid you're underestimating.

Dan

[Tommy Williamsen]

The Match: The Day the Game of Golf Changed Forever.  Good grief.  If the title is any indication of the hyperbole in the title you can have it.   I am not confident that Venturi's memory of events isn't slanted.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy, I must say that subtitle is turning me off from the book as well.  That being said, it was excerpted in one of the golf magazines recently and I enjoyed that read.  But I'm also wondering how a match between two great ams and two old pros at a private club with few witnesses changed the game of golf forever.  I have a feeling Frost tells us.  I'm just not sure I'm as inclined to agree with this as I was that the Ouimet US Open was golf's greatest game....

TH

[Dan King]

Dan Kelly writes:
Dan --

How many times are they doomed to repeat it?

Dan

Dan --

Six.

Dan

Dan --

I'm afraid you're underestimating.

Dan

Dan --

Could be.

Dan

My great-grandfather used to say to his wife, my great-grandmother, who in turn told her daughter, my grandmother, who repeated it to her daughter, my mother, who used to remind her daughter, my own sister, that to talk well and eloquently was a very great art, but that an equally great one was to know the right moment to stop.  
 --Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

[George Pazin]

Maybe the 5 most misleading words emanating from Hollywood:

Inspired by a true story.

Maybe that should've been the subtitle for The Greatest Game....

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