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George_Bahto

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Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« on: November 10, 2007, 11:07:02 AM »
The finest hole in golf it has been called.

So fine a really good version has not been built???

Now I certainly do not mean we have to drive over a building, of course.

Certainly there have been great versions of the green complex itself but as far as the entirety of the 17th on The Old Course, WHERE ARE THEY - WHO BUILT THEM (or even one?).

thoughts
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
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Jeff Loh

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 11:13:21 AM »
hello george
hope things are well.

I will say one that does NOT work for me is Banks' version at Tamarack. Would love to get you up there and maybe you could explain it to me. No road bunker--fun green but has nothing to do with the original imho. a pond to replicate the sheds? maybe i am missing something.......
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2007, 11:14:07 AM »
# 7 at NGLA, by far.

Now, if they'd only extend the tees a little to offset the effects of runaway hi-tech.
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ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 11:16:00 AM »
George,

Without a doubt, for me, the 8th at Fishers Island. I've seen it play from driver, 7-iron to driver, 3-wood, wedge and no matter what direction the wind is blowing (or not blowing) it is still a knee-knocking tee shot. I love the green, especially since ace head greenkeeper Mr. Donald Beck expanded it a few years ago to the original dimensions. The other cool aspect is wayward shots right into the sandy waste area, if found, can most often be played.

I'm also partial to the one at Dedham. As you know, the hole bends to the right and the second shot is to an uphill, reverse Road Hole green. I'm guessing when the course was built there were not trees down the right side and tee balls could carry the road, i.e. railroad shed. That would have been a great, great tee shot.

By the way, do you think 18 at Fishers is Road Hole or just a Road Hole green?

More importantly, what's up with the Devils?

Anthony
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Gib_Papazian

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 11:33:34 AM »
Uncle George,

An entire "Road Hole" aside from NGLA or one of Raynor's versions? I cannot think of a single one.

That stated, I have seen a few "Road Hole" green complexes.

By that, I am suggesting that holes like #12 at Bandon Dunes have something which emulates the basic schematic.

It is elevated and the putting surface is similar (though larger).

There is a "please God take my life rather than go in there because I'll have to play out backwards Bunker from Hell" on the left side of the putting surface.

There is no "road" behind it of course, but there are some similarities, even though it is a par-3 and essentially downhill.

You may end up accusing me of heresy and having your faithful editor burned at the stake, but the Road Hole as it exists at St. Andrews is *really* an idiotic set-up.

All of the individual strategic elements are fantastic - blind diagonal carry off the tee, risk-reward approach so dangerous it can ruin you round with a single twitch, a crap shoot behind the green and the danger of the ball wandering into the bunker from any angle at any time.

But if we really admit the truth, it is sort of silly - a collection of disparate elements used as hazards and impediments (a wall and a road) and a green complex that nearly put Tommy Nakajima in a mental hospital.

The Road at NGLA is VASTLY superior in every way. Maybe not as dangerous, but superior as a strategic challenge.

I recall the first time I played the Road Hole at St. Andrews, it was a cut driver and a four iron to six feet. No fuss, no muss. The last time, I made a nine. So if the object is to create the equivalent of #17 at TPC Sawgrass, it fulfills the objective.

   
   
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 11:35:20 AM by Gib Papazian »
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Tom_Doak

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 11:41:54 AM »
George:

I've seen two versions on non-Raynor courses which impressed me with how severe they were -- one at Huntington Country Club and the other at Glen Head [the former Women's National].

We did a version of the Road green on the 14th hole at Cape Kidnappers, an almost-driveable par-4 ... man that one is severe.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2007, 11:42:18 AM »
Gib,

Your description of the # 17 reminds me of someone who was describing Sophia Loren's individual features and overall look.

He said that when you examined her features individually, they weren't much and were mostly flawed, but, somehow, when they were all put together, they were rather impressive.

Unfortunately, while I've been quite intimate with # 17 at TOC I never had an intimate experience with Sophia Loren.

I wish it would have been the other way around.
Then you could tell me everything I wanted to know about the "Road Hole" .... and I ...
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Gib_Papazian

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2007, 12:19:11 PM »
Patrick,

On our first date, the Road Hole ripped off my clothes and tore into me like a horny Sorority girl with a head full of Ecstasy and champagne.

The last time we were together, she invited me in, ripped off my testicles, stole my wallet and kicked me out the door with her 6" stiletto heels.

Maybe I need to bring her flowers next time.  
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 12:19:42 PM by Gib Papazian »
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Rich Goodale

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2007, 12:28:04 PM »
Damn it, Gib.  Now I'm sorry I had to leave you that day at the 16th green--I obviously missed something big!

To me the coolest thing about the Road Hole is the road, and it's probably never going to be replicated anywhere in the world.  There are hundreds of bunkers like the Road Hole bunker, and thousand of similar greens, but there is only one hole where if you bail out you have to hit your next shot off the asphalt with the general public pausing in their daily strolls to watch.
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Jim Nugent

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2007, 12:35:14 PM »
Quote
To me the coolest thing about the Road Hole is the road, and it's probably never going to be replicated anywhere in the world.  

Would architects find it cheesy to build a road along their Road Holes?  
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Rich Goodale

Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2007, 12:41:52 PM »
Jim

Not sure if "cheesy" is the right word.  Maybe a Quirk Too Far?
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mike_beene

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2007, 01:14:59 PM »
When does a cart path become a road?Cart path-bad,road -good,fire-bad.
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Bill Brightly

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2007, 01:15:12 PM »
George,

Hackensack (Banks) will have a superb version very soon!

We are putting back "the road" behind our 18thgreen (taken out by Gordon in the earky 1960's,) adding the three bunkers on the outside of the dogleg as drawn by Banks (Or Raynor???) and even adding the railroad shed bunker off the tee!

I haven't played National yet, but I know that you are gonna love our Raod Hole!
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BCrosby

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2007, 01:22:08 PM »
Jim -

I've seen a number of modern greens that are angled and bunkered similarly to the Road Hole that have cart paths hard on  the back edge of the green.

The paths function much as the road on the 17th at TOC. Balls that reach the path tend to roll off into pretty bad gunge.

An example is the 9th at Crabapple in Atlanta. It's pretty cool the way the green sets up with the cart path. It would be even cooler if I thought it had been designed with the Road Hole in mind. (As things are now, there has been criticism of the path and they will probably relocate it in a couple of years.)

Bob  

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George_Bahto

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2007, 01:32:03 PM »
Bill: I know the Raynor/Banks drawing of your Road hole well!! - esp the huge bunker.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2007, 01:37:13 PM »
Gib: I only played it once (this past spring). Tee was forward, though, calling for  a fade off the tee rather than over the hotel. Pretty good drive, pull my second short and left into the tall grass then proceeded to hot my 3rd which landed on the top of the Road hole pot bunker and bounded over the green to within a foot of the wall !!!! Banged off the wall to ricochet back to the green (great fun!!). Unfortunately it did not come close to the hole.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2007, 01:41:10 PM »
Rich:

We are debating whether to have a road in play on our Road hole in Bandon.  There is a maintenace road that has to run right past that green -- we could make it a paved road or an old rutted two-track, and we could put it close to the green if we want.  I have asked Mr. Keiser if he would go for that but I think the decision will have to wait until he sees it on the ground.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2007, 02:00:36 PM »
Tom: How great that would be - hope Mike goes for it.



Hackensack Golf Club Road Hole Raynor. Banks concept drawing:

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Gene Greco

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2007, 02:00:48 PM »
  2nd at The Maidstone is a pretty good version. With the road running all along the left side and hazard all along the right it is a more dangerous version than the one found at NGLA.

Which one was built first, Maidstone's or NGLA's?
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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2007, 02:06:10 PM »
Gib said:   George, “You may end up accusing me of heresy and having your faithful editor burned at the stake, but the Road Hole as it exists at St. Andrews is *really* an idiotic set-up.

All of the individual strategic elements are fantastic - blind diagonal carry off the tee, risk-reward approach so dangerous it can ruin you round with a single twitch, a crap shoot behind the green and the danger of the ball wandering into the bunker from any angle at any time.

But if we really admit the truth, it is sort of silly - a collection of disparate elements used as hazards and impediments (a wall and a road) and a green complex that nearly put Tommy Nakajima in a mental hospital.”

Yep - recommend you get burned at the stake at an early age!!!!!!!!!!!
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill Brightly

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2007, 02:07:05 PM »
George! Thanks for posting, but how did Raynor's name get on that drawing???

The hole will put restored as per that drawing, so I KNOW you are gonna love it!
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George_Bahto

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2007, 02:14:18 PM »
but how did Raynor's name get on that drawing

my info ways they drew up the plans together, SR died and Banks built the course "towards" their plans
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2007, 02:29:51 PM »
I believe that is true. We just hired an Historian to organize all of our artifacts, including a load of stuff in the basement! I am praying he finds the old club minutes when we were deciding to move from City of Hackensack. I bet we first hired Raynor.
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George_Bahto

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2007, 03:17:42 PM »
Bill Brightly: Here’s what I have (some from notes by Met historian, Bill Quirin):

Originally Kinderkamack CC, Hackensack Golf Club’s 18-hole construction began 1925 under the direction of Charles Banks and his mentor Seth Raynor (and of course Raynor died in January 1926).

Someplace I have a copy of an article that appeared in the old Metropolitan Golfer magazine citing they “broke ground” in 1925 so considering Banks had recently been brought in as a new partner by Seth, it cannot be a “Banks-course” - he certainly was not out on his own in less than a year.

During the latter part of 1925 both names appeared on many of their designs (Essex County, Rock Spring and many others)

So it should be considered Banks-built, of course.

I’m sure modifications to the original concept were done in the field.

By the way, there is a great video (made from an old 16mm film) of a lot of the construction of Hackensack. There is a copy at Golf House.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill Brightly

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Re:Where are the best versions of the Road hole
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2007, 03:24:24 PM »
Thanks, George. I always thought that Hackensack had the best routing of any of the Banks courses...and now I know why!
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