Could this hole be built today?

[wsmorrison]

Pat Mucci asked that I post this modern aerial:

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Tom P:
That's true, but Macdonald was also a staunch opponent of blind shots for the sake of blindness ..."

TomD:

I'm not sure how anyone can make that kind of distinction, particularly when they too create blind holes.

TEPaul,

I was puzzled by that remark as well, especially since there's varying degrees of blindness on about 16 holes at NGLA.[/color]

What does blind shots for the sake of blindness really mean anyway ?

I asked myself the same question.

I can see varying degrees of functionality in blindness, such as the final resting place of one's drive on # 1, # 2, # 5, # 7, # 10, # 14, # 15, # 16 and # 17 at NGLA, but, I don't undertand the issue in the context of # 3, # 11 and # 18 at NGLA.

Isn't the creation of blindness, the function and purpose of blindness ?

Is there anything that CBM wrote that could clarify that remark, and when and where did CBM make that remark.

CBM seems to be a man of contradiction, finding distaste in the works of others while glorifying the same features in his own works. [/color]

Does it mean that an architect would have to actually manufacture blindness rather than simply use it somehow on a particular landform ?

Interesting question.

However, don't you find that the bank of the forward right fairway bunker on the first hole that blocks the view from the right side of the fairway, is constructed ?

Could the same could be said of the area fronting # 16 green ?  The dune/mound fronting # 17 green ?
The "Principal's Nose" complex ?[/color]

Just like Ross or any of the other architects of that time or probably any time Macdonald probably just said various and differing things about the same subject when it seemed convenient for him to do so.

I think that's true.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Thanks.

The 3rd hole is the hole running top to bottom on the far left side of the photo.

Unfortunately, the aerial doesn't give you a sense of the dramatic elevation changes, but the picture below does.

[Tom_Doak]

I just meant that I am sure Macdonald thought some blind holes were good and others were bad, as I do.  We had a thread about that maybe a year ago.  It's hard to describe some of the distinctions I make on the subject but I do have clear thoughts about the subject, and when I go play a new course in the UK with a blind hole I can tell you in ten seconds whether I think it's a good one or a bad one.

[George_Bahto]

The NGLA Alps to the first time player is usually a mind-boggling experience - I know it was to me even though I knew what to expect (this was about 15 years ago). I played it alone that day and had no idea where to aim to the green - never found the ball.  Hit it where I was looking (that’s fun) but I’m sure it was well left of my aiming point

It has become one of my favorite holes in golf - but that’s a considerable group of holes. Gib put his view of the Alps to me early on - “either you love it or hate it.”

I also so think it has a lot to do with how you feel about quirkiness on golf holes.

One of the most overlooked features of the Alps at National is the approach to the green from the “route around the mountain” - especially how the green severely falls away from that line of play. The green at NGLA’s Alps, to me, is one of the great greens on the course, aside from the fact it just fits the hole so well.

I also found the features of 17-Prestwick was so different that CB’s version - not in the overall concept of course, but in the details. ..... at Prestwick the abruptness of the “hill” as opposed to Charlie’s huge-mountain carry version  ..... and of course, the difference in the size of fronting bunker. My eyes popped when I came over the hill at17- Prestwick!

Also interesting (well, to me it is): I can’t think an Alps Charles Banks ever built  ....... but Banks wasn’t into blindness once he went out on his own. Even some of his Redan’s were from elevated tee-boxes.

It would be interesting to see if we can come up with a better version of what Raynor called “Alps-bunkering” (the front bunker) rather than the usual narrow strip bunker they invariably used.

On that very enlightening trip I had to Scotland this past spring with Tom and his associates, that was one of a number features Charlie Macdonald did not “capture” on his NGLA version holes.

And along those lines it was also very interesting to me how Mac modified so many of those original concepts and holes he used as his prototypical models (not templates). The Leven hole, the Alps, some of Redan, Scotscraig 4th and even the Road hole come to mind. I think I’ll start a Road Hole thread !!

I’m really excited about what we will come up with at Old Macdonald for an Alps (and of course the others) - we certainly have the topography for very exciting and interesting hole(s). Those involved all love the Alps concept so I’m sure there will be a excellent one on Old Macdonald.