Could this hole be built today?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

When I first came to NY in 1989, this hole made the biggest impression upon my golfing sensibilities since first playing #6 Riviera in a high school golf match.  The only way to play this hole well is with a caddy and you must hit both a great drive and wonderful approach.  These pictures do not show the incredible movement that this green possesses.  I  look forward to playing this hole more than the next hole, even though it is more famous.  My earlier thread showed my favorite version of the template.  There are probably better pictures, but hopefully this will help those who have not played this great course to better appreciate its greatness.

[Mike_Cirba]

Damn, I love that hole.

I was going to start a thread suggesting that perhaps technology can bring back the blind shot.

I'm seeing some combination of hand-held GPS combined with range-finder that shows the location of the groups in front of you.  

That would certainly mitigate liability issues, and perhaps once again these type of adventurous blind holes will be created by bold architects.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

The safety issue was mostly resolved when my friend Joe McBride, a wonderful golfer and gentleman, donated the bell tower and bell that resides behind the 3rd green.  It is rung by groups leaving the 3rd green, signaling golfers in the 3rd fairway that it's OK to approach the green.

There's something neat about hearing that bell as you play your round.

I haven't heard of any problems on that hole.

It's a wonderful golf hole with an incredible green and surrounds.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

The safety issue was mostly resolved when my friend Joe McBride, a wonderful golfer and gentleman, donated the bell tower and bell that resides behind the 3rd green.  It is rung by groups leaving the 3rd green, signaling golfers in the 3rd fairway that it's OK to approach the green.

There's something neat about hearing that bell as you play your round.

I haven't heard of any problems on that hole.

It's a wonderful golf hole with an incredible green and surrounds.

Patrick,

I too love the sound of the bell on a blind hole.

In my teens I often played on a Geoffrey Cornish course called Wilkes-Barre Municipal, whose 6th hole was a driveable short par four, where you could either lay up to the top of the hill with an iron and pitch down below, or try driver, hoping to get to the bottom, skirting a fronting bunker, and stopping on a shallow sliver of green (with woods and death behind).

It was a really fun hole, but what also created a very neat atmosphere was the bell that golfers rang on their way from the 6th green to the 7th tee, notifying players that the coast was clear.

Similarly, Scranton Muni by James Harrison/Fred Garbin had a bell on theri downhill, blind 6th hole, which while not driveable, had a completely blind driving area.

That hole also featured a mirror up in a tree to view the landing area, so it was doubly protected against any dangerous interplay between groups.

In fact, if I wasn't so tired, I'd love to start a thread on blind shot warning methods.

Patrick..if you have more energy than me at the moment, please feel free to cop my idea.    

[Gerry B]

was last there 3 weeks ago - nice photos - one of the great holes on the planet and can be a round wrecker if one lets their guard down.

could it be built today ?

if it was a private club  -probably  

if it was a public course? - let the personal injury litigation begin!

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's see...ummm...Erin Hills comes to mind.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I agree with you about the bell and the blindness of #3 NGLA. I'm surprised the course played without one so long as to have Joe McBride donate a bell.

I grew up at Piping Rock and the bell on #15 was around as long as I can remember. One would just tap it with one's putter and the players in the fairway below would then know to proceed.

Actually there were three blindish holes on the back nine at Piping that unraveled themselves in some neat ways.

Groups waited in the fairway on #12 until they could see the group ahead step up on the high tee of #13. And on #13 tee groups waited until they could see the group ahead climb up to the green. And then there was that wonderful bell on #15.

It's a shame this kind of blindness became so unpopular with so many golfers in later years.

[wsmorrison]

I like bells on a golf course.  My son liked to scamper up the hill at Cruden Bay to ring the bell rather than using the long rope.

Piping Rock's idea to tap the putter head on the bell is a charming idea though in this day and age of $350 Scotty Cameron putters, it might be difficult to find someone in the group that wants to do that.

Philadelphia Country Club's 16th hole is a blind tee shot on a downhill par 4.  There's a box at the tee with a red or green light that indicates when to hit the tee shots.  It is triggered by a switch to the right of the fairway (I always forget to activate it).  I think a bell would work well if a smaller group doesn't come upon a larger one suddenly.  Any suggestions on how to handle blind tee shots.  The periscope at Elie is a neat idea, but doesn't really work as well 70 miles inland.

[Rich Goodale]

"Any suggestions on how to handle blind tee shots."

Wayne

In the summer, hire kids to stand to one side at the brow of the hill and wave players from the tee on once the fairway or green has cleared.  Outside of summer vacation time, hire old guys like Tom Paul who have too much time on their hands, and could use the spare change, to do the same thing.  You could give him a bell and an old putter, if you like.

Rich

[wsmorrison]

Rich,

Even after the massive barn renovation project, I doubt Tom needs spare change.  Besides, with his 18 cases of Lyme's disease already setting a record, do we really want him out on a golf course all day long?  There are a lot of deer around Philadelphia Country Club.

Now I could use the spare change.  I think I'll apply for the position as long as they give me a comfy chair.  I can watch as my mother-in-law plays past and say hi to my oldest son when he caddies.

[Joe Hancock]

I didn't ask exactly this question when we played it, but it was close. I asked something like "Could anyone build a hole like this today without being absolutely hung?" (Yes, class, that has double meaning).

If it is built where it might be expected (Old MacDonald) I think it would still be accepted. If it is a one of a kind, bold hole in a sea of fairness, then it will be cast aside as quirky, unfair and unsafe.

All in context, I believe.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"Piping Rock's idea to tap the putter head on the bell is a charming idea though in this day and age of $350 Scotty Cameron putters, it might be difficult to find someone in the group that wants to do that."

Wayne:

That bell out there off #15 green is one helluva bell. All one has to do is lightly tap it and it can be heard for a long way. It does have a knocker but if you actually grab that and use that to ring the bell you'd probably wake up the dead and there have always been a lot of "dead" at and around Piping Rock. It's never a great idea to wake some of them up. Believe me, I do know that.  

On the other hand, there's still enough of the rebelrowser in me. Since we get on the road to places like LI so early I suggest we go over to the 15th around daybreak one of these days and you take that knocker on that bell and just ring the holy hell out of it for about 5-10 minutes at around 6am and wake up everyone for about two miles.

Once we've drawn enough of a crowd in their PJ's and such I suggest you just take a leak on Macdonald/Raynor's 15th green and then we'll get in the car and hie on out to Shinnecock, a real golf course by a real architect.

[Kyle Harris]

Do the local rules at Piping Rock allow for a 15th club as "Bell Putter?"

[TEPaul]

"Do the local rules at Piping Rock allow for a 15th club as "Bell Putter?"

I doubt that. Piping probably isn't that progressive yet and it all probably stems from the fact that they still maintain something of a dress code.

[Kyle Harris]

"Do the local rules at Piping Rock allow for a 15th club as "Bell Putter?"

I doubt that. Piping probably isn't that progressive yet and it all probably stems from the fact that they still maintain something of a dress code.

Damn right it does... they probably stipulate that if you're afraid of damaging a putter, you need to wear one of those shirts with the long collar points and starch them so stiff you can ring the bell with them.

[/thread jack]

By the way, where the hell is the green, it's over the highest point of the knob, right?

[Tom_Doak]

We'll be building something like it this winter in Bandon.  Of course, we'll have the cover of using Mr. Macdonald's name behind it, and everyone out there is already biased in favor of quirky architecture -- but I suspect that even with all those positive factors, it will still be a controversial hole that isn't one of the favorites on the course.  Will be interesting to find out.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RMD,

To answer your question, I doubt it, but, not because of safety issues.

CBM, SR and CB couldn't duplicate the hole because they couldn't find the similar, unique land form required for the hole.
All of their "Alps" holes pale in comparison to the original in the U.S.

An elevated tee, down to a valley like fairway fronted by a huge hill sitting slightly to the left, to another valley like setting, elevated well above the fairway, where the green and surrounds are quite unusual.

How come, when everyone complains about mounds, they don't complain about the long mound behind the 3rd green ?  

Despite the ability to move dirt, I don't think the banks will finance acquiring/moving that much dirt.

So, I don't think its the safety issue.

From that perspective, it's just another blind hole, no different from many others, including # 5 at Old Marsh, Pete Dye's tribute to # 17 at Prestwick, with a bell for Pete's dad as an added touch, or # 10 at Friar's Head.

The reason it hasn't been duplicated is that noone's found the necessary, unique landform.

If they did, they would have built a duplicate.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak said:

"-- but I suspect that even with all those positive factors, it will still be a controversial hole that isn't one of the favorites on the course.  Will be interesting to find out."


That, in fact, would be playing right into C.B. Macdonald's mentality about architecture and controversy, and probably occasional blindness in architecture too:

"Rest assured, however, when a controversy is hotly contested over several years as to whether this or that hazard is fair, it is the kind of hazard you want and it has real merit. Where there is unanimous opinion that such and such a hazard is perfect, one usually finds in commonplace. I know of no classic hole that doesn't have its decriers."

Blindness is very much a form of "hazard". It's too bad that so many modern golfers have either forgotten that or refuse to accept it.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

That's true, but Macdonald was also a staunch opponent of blind shots for the sake of blindness ... he was not so impressed by the Maiden, the Himalayas, and other famous holes of the day.

[Jason Connor]

We'll be building something like it this winter in Bandon.  Of course, we'll have the cover of using Mr. Macdonald's name behind it, and everyone out there is already biased in favor of quirky architecture -- but I suspect that even with all those positive factors, it will still be a controversial hole that isn't one of the favorites on the course.  Will be interesting to find out.

Perhaps I've been living in a cave. But you're building a new course in Bandon?

[TEPaul]

"Tom P:
That's true, but Macdonald was also a staunch opponent of blind shots for the sake of blindness ..."

TomD:

I'm not sure how anyone can make that kind of distinction, particularly when they too create blind holes.

What does blind shots for the sake of blindness really mean anyway?

Does it mean that an architect would have to actually manufacture blindness rather than simply use it somehow on a particular landform?

Just like Ross or any of the other architects of that time or probably any time Macdonald probably just said various and differing things about the same subject when it seemed convenient for him to do so.

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:

We start in January.  It's a two-year project -- we'll build something like nine holes between January and May, and then come back after Thanksgiving to do the rest next winter.

[Jason Connor]

Thanks. I just found it!

http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,1588374,00.html

Since I'll probably never have the chance to play NGLA, I'm especially looking forward to playing your new course at Bandon.

[Jason Blasberg]

Robert, your posts continue to inspire . . . please keep it up!  Winter is coming and for us staying in the Met area we need visual aids to make it through!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Some holes are an acquired taste for many golfers.
Their appeal isn't readily embraced on the first or early play.

I've spoken to a number of golfers who rejected # 3 at NGLA as gimmickie, even after a few plays.

Golfers are a unique breed.

I don't believe that I ever heard a golfer declare that a hole was unfair, gimmickie or poorly designed after he just birdied it.

Golfers seek to blame factors beyond themselves for their failures, and a hole like # 3 at NGLA has factors galore.

Didn't Pete Dye utter words to the effect that if the Pro's are complaining about a hole, he must have done something right ?

I believe that one of the appeals of the 3rd hole at NGLA is the enormously broad fairway with the diagonal bunker challenging the golfer to bite off as much as he dares.

Unfortunately, modern day length has muted some of that challenge.

And, the funny thing about the hole is, that even if you hit a great tee shot up the right side, to the point where you can see the right corner of the green, you still don't get that much of an advantage over the golfer that's hit it dead straight or even a little to the left.

One might argue that with the exception of the upper right plateau in the green, coming in from the right side will create a "hot" ball that the green will feed and fend off to the surrounds, whereas, a ball coming from dead center or left has a prefered angle of attack into the configuration of that green.

Driving distance is another unusual aspect of the hole.
One must be able to reach the green or fall into the fronting bunker or tall grass, however, if you have to hit a longer club, trajectory becomes a dilema.  CBM assists the golfer by having the fairway rise to meet the hill, thus aiding the golfer in his attempt to get the ball up.  However, if you hit it too far, you're in the fescue and are faced with addition problems.

A fairway that seems so wide that few golfers are intimidated by what they see, and, the expansiveness deceives them into thinking that they can hit it anywhere in the fairway without adverse consequences.

It's quite an unusual hole with a green and surrounds that are spectacular

In 1938 the entire front of the green was blocked by bunkers, and there appears to have been bunkers well behind the green, causing me to wonder when the backstop berm was constructed.

George Bahto,

Where are you when I need you ?

George's book, "The Evangelist of Golf" has some great text and pictures of the 3rd hole, giving you the "golfer's eye" perspective on the hole as well.

It's a book that should be in everyone's library.