[Joe Hancock]

Quality almost always costs more. Sometimes it's the cost of production, sometimes it's purely supply and demand.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do you think I would be wrong in asserting that when most people walked, golf grew. Now that most people ride, golf is shrinking?

I think there is no proof that carts bring more people to the game.

I wouldn't have been able to play for three (3) years without the use of a cart.

And, I know many golfers who wouldn't be able to play without the use of a cart.

Why should they be denied ?[/color]

I have yet to read a good argument about carts growing the game or making it too expensive. I do believe, and studies had shown, that golf carts do not  speed up the game.

So if we eliminated golf carts, then the game would take less time and golf would grow ?

That's not true.

And, it's golfers who slow the game, irrespective if they walk or ride, not carts.[/color]

I played one morning as a twosome. I walked while the other fellow rode a cart. Since the cart paths were far from the greens. I could walk directly to the next tee before he could walk back to his cart and drive up to the next tee. We played in 2:45. Sure we didn't get to talk much.

Scott,

That's a flawed example.

Cart path only courses inherently slow up play, whereas courses without cart path only use speed up play.

I'll guarantee you that I'll play in 1/3 to 1/2 the time that it takes you to play 18 holes on a course where I can drive my cart through the green.

[Jim_Kennedy]

And are any of those courses any good? One that would appeal to a thoughtful golf architecture student like Ryan or myself?-Kyle Harris

Who cares about you two, to paraphrase Lily Tomlin, you two aren't the party to whom I am speaking.

I'm in Tampa, Fl. Ryan is at ASU. I think we both recognize that there are places we can go... but in order to see different courses (within reason, might I add) we need to constantly compromise and give up a little more time and money to play them.

Life's a compromise, to some degree, so man up.   Your trips to different courses are nothing more than a hobby, or extra-cirricular activity pursuant to your future career. The real world lives differently than two college students. 'They' find suitable opportunities that fit their time frames and pocketbooks and live within those constraints, save for the yearly bash to Myrtle or Pinehurst or Atlantic City or Phoenix or San Diego or Nebraska, or etc.,etc.,etc..

As for courses that mandate cart usage, well, someone there has a reason. You don't have to like it but you do have to accept it, like it or not.

Vote with your feet.  

[Kyle Harris]

Joe and all,

See, the issue here isn't actually the decision to use a golf cart or walk. Nor is it the decision to choose what one decides to wear on the golf course.

The issue is the ability of the customer to choose their method of playing the game.

I enjoy playing the game while carrying my bag and walking. I see these as inherent challenges that are fundamental to the game. I may be riding a high horse of golf morals here, but it annoys me to no end that A: in order to enjoy the game as I see fit I am more often than not limited in the time I can do it OUTSIDE of supply/demand factors. Meaning, even if I'm able to schedule my golf two weeks in advance and follow all the normal channels of making a tee time I will still be compelled to ride. or B: I may walk, but the cart fee is charged anyway, or hidden within the green fee - so I am subsidizing a service that I choose not to use.

The only reason, and I am dead on serious about this regardless of what anyone could tell me otherwise, is because it was determined that the pure weight of the golf cart market would give the golf course the ability to make carts compulsory during certain times without making a significant dent in their market and some MBA determined that making EVERYONE ride would jack up margins by 3% and not turn off the majority of the market since for every walker turned down, another cart rider would fill in.

I made the point in my other thread and will make it here... give the devil an inch and he'll take a mile. Suddenly we have determined that the golf market will allow themselves to be charged for a golf cart, whether or not they want it or not. So now we have golf courses built for a market that will take compulsory cart riding and then fundamental aspects of golf course design like course routing and clever use of features go out the window. We build golf courses where in order to actually play the damn thing in a reasonable amount of time one would have to take a cart - so now they add the reason that the course is simply unwalkable for pace of play reasons.

ALL OF THIS BEFORE THE GOLFER IS GIVEN THE CHANCE TO MAKE A CHOICE!

It's entirely possible that this is a non-issue for most people as they have the means and time to just "rub their neck and write 'em check and go their merry way..." but for a lot of other golfers, the time and cost restrictions of things that are NON ESSENTIALS TO THE GOLF EXPERIENCE are stifling and exclusionary.

I am more than willing to pay $75 for a $75 golf course, but I'm not willing to pay $100 for a $75 I choose to walk.

I sought to make this point on the other thread, but unless people are at least willing to resist and show that they are thinking - they will continue to have the privilege of choice taken from them in an open market.

[Kyle Harris]

And are any of those courses any good? One that would appeal to a thoughtful golf architecture student like Ryan or myself?-Kyle Harris

Who cares about you two, to paraphrase Lily Tomlin, you two aren't the party to whom I am speaking.

I'm in Tampa, Fl. Ryan is at ASU. I think we both recognize that there are places we can go... but in order to see different courses (within reason, might I add) we need to constantly compromise and give up a little more time and money to play them.

Life's a compromise, to some degree, so man up.   Your trips to different courses are nothing more than a hobby, or extra-cirricular activity pursuant to your future career. The real world lives differently than two college students. 'They' find suitable opportunities that fit their time frames and pocketbooks and live within those constraints, save for the yearly bash to Myrtle or Pinehurst or Atlantic City or Phoenix or San Diego or Nebraska, or etc.,etc.,etc..

As for courses that mandate cart usage, well, someone there has a reason. You don't have to like it but you do have to accept it, like it or not.

Vote with your feet.  

Jim,

I'm an assistant golf course superintendent.

[Joe Hancock]

The issue is the ability of the customer to choose their method of playing the game.

I understand. And, you have the ability to choose your method. The problem begins with the fact that, apparently, you are in a minority. The masses obviously don't mind the cart being thrust upon them, or they would not play those courses. If lots of people cease to do business with cartball-only courses, then things change. You're just upset that the places you WANT to play don't have business policies that fit YOUR desires. And, again, apparently you are in the minority.

Joe

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'm an assistant golf course superintendent- KH

Then you shouldn't be complaining as you have more avenues open to you, and you really shouldn't be complaining if you have $75.00 to spend on golf at your pleasure. You cannot see the tiny violin I am strumming between my thumb and forefinger, but believe me, it's there.  

Your arguments on this thread would only be meaningful if there were no choices, but happily there are. If I as a consumer don't choose to ride I can find a course that will accomodate me, at a cost I can handle. If you as a consumer cannot find a $75.00 golf course that is architecturally pleasing and will let you walk,  you need to open your

[Kyle Harris]

Just because I have access doesn't make it right. I complain because the game is getting fat and tired and will not survive in its current state at this trend.

I'm complaining so I have a job in 10 years.

The attitude that you don't complain because you're able to do something is crap and elitist, IMO.

[Joe Hancock]

The attitude that you don't complain because you're able to do something is crap and elitist, IMO.

Who?

Joe

[Kyle Harris]

The attitude that you don't complain because you're able to do something is crap and elitist, IMO.

Who?

Joe

Impersonal you. I'm not calling you elitist or crap.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
Foghorn Leghorn: "I, I say son, you got a lot a chips flyin' over there, but I don't see any wood bein' cut."

Golf has grown and whether or not some might say that it hasn't kept up with the population, there are 3+ times the number of courses today than there was 50 years ago. You have at least 16,000 places to work, not counting other avenues where turf is grown.

The 'issues', i.e., the ability of the customer to choose their method of playing the game, and The Great-Conspiracy-To-Force-Everyone-Into-A-Cart Because-We-Can that you are yammering about are unfounded. They both fall victim to choice.

Think grass-roots, vote with your feet.

[Kyle Harris]

I am thinking grass roots and I am voting with my feet.

I don't expect anyone but the market to do anything about it.

You guys are very much a part of the market.

Also, what choices? Tell me. Seriously. You would agree that it's not reasonable to accept playing 2 golf courses out of 30 because of walking preference, right?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
First you have to verify your numbers. Two out of 30 courses means that only about 1,066 of the available 16,000+ courses in the US allow walking.

 
 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
First you have to verify your numbers. Two out of 30 courses means that only about 1,066 of the available 16,000+ courses in the US allow walking.

 
 

Jim,

ALL the time, categorically no questions asked?

I'd say I'm pretty close in that regard. If there is any time where walking is not permitted, that's crap.

And if there is any time where I can't carry my own bag, that's crap.

So yes, 2 out of 30 is probably VERY close.

[Kyle Harris]

See, regardless of how one looks at it, the golf cart mandatory policy is keeping people away from the game.

The problem isn't the golfers who have been playing for years leaving the game, nor the juniors currently playing - though that may at some time factor in.

The issue is getting a 20 or 30 something involved with the game.

Mandatory cart policies and the increased costs associated with them make what is a recreational activity a lifestyle changing choice.

What other forms of recreation require such a time and money commitment, even BEFORE all this other crap associated with most golf courses?

Tack on the fact that most of the courses where you get the flexibility to walk when you want aren't exactly of the highest calibre and you get a large amount of people dabbling in the game and quitting when the investment in order to actually enjoy some of the fundamental aspects of the game becomes too high. The statistics of play lie, I know it. It's based on a hunch but I know it.

Will the game survive as a thoughtful and mental game with people dabbling in the game a couple times a year? No.

Honestly, nobody over the age of 25 in their right mind would take up the game of golf in the sort of way that would support some of the game's long standing traditions and values. Most free thinking and rational individuals would see golf for the bullshit it's becoming and invest their time and effort into more rewarding things.

We just happen to have gotten hooked at an early age.

[Tom_Doak]

One point about the cost of carts that I hadn't really thought of before is the cost of maintaining perfect turf all the way out to the other side of the cart paths.  Before carts, it only mattered if the grass was good up the middle, playable part of the hole ... now it has to look good everywhere you might drive the cart, and indirectly, that's driven up the expense of the game enormously.

Also, those kids who want to play video games might be caddies if there were jobs for caddies, so they could afford more video games.

[Ryan Farrow]

The issue is the ability of the customer to choose their method of playing the game.

I understand. And, you have the ability to choose your method. The problem begins with the fact that, apparently, you are in a minority. The masses obviously don't mind the cart being thrust upon them, or they would not play those courses. If lots of people cease to do business with cartball-only courses, then things change. You're just upset that the places you WANT to play don't have business policies that fit YOUR desires. And, again, apparently you are in the minority.

Joe

Joe we all know the people out there are sheep. Do you think they really know what they want? No, they are told, force fed all of these things about what golf should be. They think the pros walking on tour is abnormal and cruel. Why do you think all of the young people want to ride around in carts when they play golf? Its all they have ever known, trust me, I was once a part of that. I know the market is not going to change, we all know this it can't happen from the bottom up as it is obviously shown in this thread. But I will do my part when its my time, hopefully others will do the same.


And Pat, give it up, nobody is arguing against letting the disabled play golf, that is just ridiculous. There is a place in golf for everyone.

[Kyle Harris]

Ryan,

There's no place in golf for a 25 year old with an interest in starting a new activity that requires:

The thoughtful strategic choices of chess
The physical challenges of long distance running
The rhythm and body control of dancing
The mental challenges of literature and art

That is, unless they have money to waste spending more than what they get and the time to limit the activity to small portions of the day.

Face it, golf is almost like smoking, you take it up when you're young and have nothing else to worry about and get some practice living your life around it or you don't get it at all.

Try to get a non-golfer over the age of 25 into the game and see how they ultimately respond to all the hoops one is required to jump through just to get out on the course. They'll look at you like your nuts, go lift weights at the gym and join a beer league softball game.

[Cory Lewis]

So Kyle are you prepard to go on record and say you will never play Beechtree again because they include the cart in the price of the greens fee?  What about all the other places I've got you on that have the same policy?  Never going back to them either?

[Jim_Kennedy]

 

Most free thinking and rational individuals would see golf for the bullshit it's becoming and invest their time and effort into more rewarding things.

I was going to tell you to change your major, but instead let me say this: Around here I could take you no less than a hundred places where you could walk to your heart's content, and mine is a relatively small area when compared to the total landscape of golf.
Yes, there are a few others that require a cart, or withold walking until later in afternoon, although that's not looked at as too harsh because the working person, you know, the average guy who may not have a lot of 'extra' ching, doesn't get out of work until then and the courses try to accomodate them at this time.

As for young players, this year alone we picked up several new members, young guys who bring friends along, most of whom walk. Yeah, they take a cart now and then, but they mainly walk.

The world isn't just CCFAD's and real estate driven golf.

[Kyle Harris]

So Kyle are you prepard to go on record and say you will never play Beechtree again because they include the cart in the price of the greens fee?  What about all the other places I've got you on that have the same policy?  Never going back to them either?

No Cory, that's not what I'm saying, at all. The thing is, I would know what I'm missing. Yes, I can get pissy about it and say I hate it or whatever, but ultimately I'm going to get that itch that needs to be scratched. This doesn't make such policies right, and doesn't mean they should be accepted. We rode together more often than not, I realize that.

But to the person who doesn't necessarily know what he's missing, and doesn't have the advantage of youth or age and all - it's just not worth it. I'm not sure if you've ever joined me with one of my non-golf friends who wishes to take up the game at our age but I know Mike Cirba and Doug have. In fact, you've met one of them (Dan).

I would usually take them to Jeffersonville in the afternoon and we walk and it's fun for them, they struggle to break 60 for 9 holes, but they learn how to keep up and the style of the game. It's appealing to them, despite the difficulty. We'll then spend some time at the range a few days a week and they get fairly decent to the point where they get excited to go play again and we go and they get a little better. The problem is, it never gets beyond that because the times in which they can play and enjoy the game as they want. For the beginner, the returns on the game in terms of satisfaction from improvement are gained on the range which is a cheap entry point. They spend $5.00 and hit balls for 45 minutes and get comfortable swinging a club. They then want to get out on the golf course and can't because the cost of making that jump is way too high, either in terms of time or money. They also realize they'll get the same satisfaction out of practicing at a range and then going to a chip and putt then they will playing any of the public options that are lenient (Five Ponds, Neshaminy Valley, Fairways) in Bucks County. In order for them to REALLY get something out of the game, they have to make a HUGE investment and spend $65 to play/compulsorily ride Makefield or $80 to play Glen Mills, or hope I can get them on somewhere better.

The issue isn't with me going back to a Beechtree, it's with getting the new golfer there. I don't see how a rational and decent individual who at the age of 25 and is just exposed to the game would want to play it given some of the current institutions, and these are the EXACT type of people we want to be playing it.

[Kyle Harris]

Jim,

I have no idea where you are, but all my experience has come from the Philadelphia area - mainly Bucks County.

[Cory Lewis]

The issue isn't with me going back to a Beechtree, it's with getting the new golfer there. I don't see how a rational and decent individual who at the age of 25 and is just exposed to the game would want to play it given some of the current institutions

Well this would be my job wouldn't it? In fact it is my job, and I have gotten at least 15 people this year started with the game and it is a continuing process that is up to the individual and I don't think has anything to do with the "climate" of golf.  Pretty much every beginner goes through the same process, they start on a range, do this for a few months, go play 9 holes with a friend or alone, keep doing this for a while, and then eventually they graduate to playing 18 holes, if that is their goal, many people I teach don't want to play 18 holes, they simply want to play 9 with their husband.  

It is always the individual that determines how successful
they are.  It's true that you have to be very determined to learn golf, but here in DE I haven't heard one person complain about the lack of opportunity to play or the cost involved.  

Golf is frustrating to learn and takes time and eternal patience, and that is the main reason we aren't "bringing people back to the game"  in the numbers we should, but we do what we can and on some level it's working.  

[Kyle Harris]

The issue isn't with me going back to a Beechtree, it's with getting the new golfer there. I don't see how a rational and decent individual who at the age of 25 and is just exposed to the game would want to play it given some of the current institutions

Well this would be my job wouldn't it? In fact it is my job, and I have gotten at least 15 people this year started with the game and it is a continuing process that is up to the individual and I don't think has anything to do with the "climate" of golf.  Pretty much every beginner goes through the same process, they start on a range, do this for a few months, go play 9 holes with a friend or alone, keep doing this for a while, and then eventually they graduate to playing 18 holes, if that is their goal, many people I teach don't want to play 18 holes, they simply want to play 9 with their husband.  

It is always the individual that determines how successful
they are.  It's true that you have to be very determined to learn golf, but here in DE I haven't heard one person complain about the lack of opportunity to play or the cost involved.  

Golf is frustrating to learn and takes time and eternal patience, and that is the main reason we aren't "bringing people back to the game"  in the numbers we should, but we do what we can and on some level it's working.  

Cory,

I am beginning to think, and my response to you kinda started me on this - that it could very well be a regional thing. You live in the hotbed of Philadelphia public golf, the area of PA we call almost Delaware, with a lot of good options. You also lived in Lansdale for a year... it's a bit different up that way isn't it? What's on the other side of the city? What's in Tampa or Florida in general? My attitude could full well be influenced by the fact that I've spent the majority of my time in black holes of public golf.

Also, how old are these people and what are their means? That does enter into the equation, which is why I think a lot of people in general (myself included) become blind to what is truly necessary to enjoying the game, and what has been attached to the game for the sake of making money of this (for lack of a better term) addiction.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Did you read what you just wrote? Are you are saying that golf is screwed because some young buck in Buck's county who just took up the game doesn't have the time or the bucks to play Buck's counties best and, heaven forbid, he may have to buck up and play something less challenging because the forces of evil have conspired to make the game impossible for young bucks like himself and others to have access?  

I can't even remember if I've ever even been in Buck's county but without much trouble I found several places to knock it around that don't appear to require more than one $ sign to play, and no mandatory cart. Just the type of place for a spikehorn to get acquainted with a game that could last a lifetime, as long as his attention span remains intact and he can get a grip on his need for instant gratification.

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