Bringing golf back to the people.

[Tim Bert]

Do you think I would be wrong in asserting that when most people walked, golf grew. Now that most people ride, golf is shrinking?

I think there is no proof that carts bring more people to the game.

I don't have any proof to dispute your statement.

I think it is pretty easy to ascertain that eliminating carts from the game would remove more current golfers from the game than it would bring new golfers to the game.

If you REALLY want to walk, you can find a place to play golf.  I've never been told, "I really want to start playing golf, but I'm not going to because some people ride in golf carts."

People don't play due to lack of time, lack of money, or lack of interest - not necessarily in that order.

[Ryan Farrow]

I am in no way saying that the poor souls who can no longer physically play the game of golf be banned from the course, I have no problem with a few carts a day on the course for people with those special needs.

I am thinking about the image the game of golf in the United States portrays. When you think about golf in the kingdom do you think about carts running rampant around the course? Now do you think about it when you think of American golf?

And i think this loss of cart revenue is a bunch of BS. What about the the overhead associated with this, cost to replace an outdated fleet, cost to maintain the cart paths that would no longer be necessary? The benefit to the environment that is associated with then energy used to power the carts, the construction of the paths themselves. Is it really worth it in the end, or do we need to start phasing out carts for the good of the game once and for all?


I wonder how many ClubCar or EzGo people we have in the forum?

[Joe Hancock]

Ryan,

The "cost of carts" is minimal compared to the "cost of green and perfect". I think you're trying to make a global case out of a personal preference.

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

I don't think carts or the lack of carts have much to do with "the growth" or the demise of golf...

People should have choice....I know the people at my course that ride will continue to ride if carts are banned at my course...they'll just move to another course that allows carts.

Just like everything else in this world golf is competing for our time and money...people only have so much of both.  

Back when I was a kid we went fishing, played golf, played baseball with our friends and hung out....now days parents are spending nearly as much time hauling their kids all over gods creation so the kids can "take piano", play organized soccer/hockey/basketball/softball/baseball. or worse yet, play on a "travel team'...all this cost lots of money and tons of time...and leaves everyone with little time for golf...skiing...fishing...etc.

[Jason Mandel]

Jason, absolutely.

Ryan,
I'f i'm not mistaken your in school to be a superintendent or architect.  Less golfers mean less courses to maintain or design.  Golf is headed that way...  

Ryan and I both see the writing on the walls in that regard. I think that's why we're trying to get different viewpoints in there.

And yes, I still call from Florida. It just gets too far, and I like Lederach a lot.

I found Long Shadow to be very walkable, did you?

Kyle,

Longshadow is walkable, but not a course I would want to walk everyday.  

I walked and carried the day before at Athens, which is a great walking course and then carried the Saturday morning at Longshadow.  I decided to take a cart on the back 9 and also took a cart on Sunday as well, as did many others.

Granted i'm not in the best shape, but I walk about 80% of my rounds.  

Jason

[Kyle Harris]

Going to have to agree that the cost of carts to the club is minimal. Carts are pure profit for a golf course for the most part and ClubCar and EZGo make their money up front, not based on how much their carts are used.

[Tim Bert]

As the commissioner of this great-undertaking, how are you going to enforce who gets a cart and who doesn't?  

Do we set a list of health conditions and damn you if you don't have one of them?  Is simply being too overweight and out of shape enough?  Do I need a doctor's note or a handicapped sticker?

The loss of revenue is real.  I doubt, based on the pricing at most courses, that carts are a loss-leader at most locations.

What about the jobs at ClubCar and EZGo?

I love to walk, but this isn't very practical.

[Craig Sweet]

Ryan, when I think about golf "in the kingdom", I think about people walking course that are typically less than 6100 yards long....tee boxes right next to the green you just walked off from etc...

American golf is bombastic, uber resort, "one upsmenship" ego driven, and does not resemble the sport as played by most golfers "in the kingdom".

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan, when I think about golf "in the kingdom", I think about people walking course that are typically less than 6100 yards long....tee boxes right next to the green you just walked off from etc...

American golf is bombastic, uber resort, "one upsmenship" ego driven, and does not resemble the sport as played by most golfers "in the kingdom".

Which is precisely why things need to change around here, just thinking out loud about what needs to change and how.

[Chris Cupit]

Going to have to agree that the cost of carts to the club is minimal. Carts are pure profit for a golf course for the most part and ClubCar and EZGo make their money up front, not based on how much their carts are used.

Kyle,  

Carts are a profit center but I have to assume you are exagerating a bit when you speak of "pure profit".  On average carts will be leased by most operators for about $70 per cart per month, so about $5000 a month assuming 72 carts or so.

Then you have to have a fairly large building to store the carts, charge the carts nightly, have a staff of 8-12 to have the fleet ready every day, a mechanic or at least a very dedicated cart guy that maintains the fleet, repairs, insurance AND, oh, I almost forgot, somewhere between $350,000 to $800,000 invested in a path around the golf course.

Pure profit  Spoken like a true non-owner!!!!

Sometimes I wonder if its really worth it but at least at my course I couldn't expect too many golfers to be able to walk a fairly hilly course in humid Atlanta.  I have a lot of seniors who would simply have to quit.

Since I am a busy facility with around 35,000 rounds this year, without paths the course would look like a dust bowl this year and a mud pit during rainy years.  Of course, no carts would drop the rounds to around 15,000 or so---hard to keep a course inexpensive on no cart revenue and only 15,000 rounds a year!

I belong to a club that has caddies that are required and I walk most my rounds--that model isn't cheap!  Argueabley, carts help keep costs down and they undoubtedley make the game possible to a very large segment that would otherwise have to start playing shuffleboard.

I think the shame of the industry has been the uncontrolled/unregulated explosion in equipment technology that has made a set of clubs too expensive for the good of the game.  

[Kyle Harris]

Chris,

Thank you for taking the bait - I was hoping someone with specific numbers would post as to the true cost. The thing that annoys me is how blurred these costs are, how they ultimately come back to bite the golfer in the ass (or at least one pocket on the ass).

Every cost you listed is not a cost REQUIRED to play golf. You say that carts keep costs down as compared to caddy. Well, the requirement to take a caddy is no worse than the requirement to take a cart.

It's amazing how much leeching is done around country clubs. I was remarking to Ryan last night about cart attendants and how my next encounter with one may go.

Cart attendant: "Good morning sir, How may I help make your experience better today?"
Me: "Quit."
CA: "Pardon?"
Me: "Quit this job, go home, read a book and live your life."
CA: "Did I do something to offend you?"
Me: "Not personally, but this job pays you a salary and is necessitated by the presence of a golf cart I do not wish to use but which I must pay anyway. You're here to assist me in getting my bag from the trunk of my car to the golf cart, yet I was perfectly able to get the clubs from my house and along the 10 mile journey to the course, I think I can handle the last 30 yards or so. If you're here to make money, I think you'll find more rewarding jobs elsewhere with more flexible hours that will give you the time to pursue your other goals and perhaps move on to college. If you'd like to make my journey from my home to the golf course that much more enjoyable, perhaps you could research alternate fuels and help reduce the cost of my trip thereby influencing the first 10 miles of the my journey instead of the last 30 yards."

Yes, this is satire on the level of Swift suggesting that Irish babies can help overcome famine and no, I will not treat a cart attendant like that. The underlying point is that golfers have been faced with an increasing amount of hoops through which to jump just to be able to play the game. How many times are you actually ASKED if you'd like your bag taken or clubs cleaned? Not too many, and when I was an apprentice, I was TOLD that I did not offer, but instead just DID it. When someone refused or did not tip us, the staff (myself included) labeled that person as cheap and antisocial.

That's unfair and just wrong.

[Mike_Young]

Ryan,
Yes you would see a change.....Less golfers.....and less courses and higher green fees.....not that I like it but it is just a necessary evil to the sport in America  IMHO.
Mike

[Scott Weersing]

Do you think I would be wrong in asserting that when most people walked, golf grew. Now that most people ride, golf is shrinking?

I think there is no proof that carts bring more people to the game.

I have yet to read a good argument about carts growing the game or making it too expensive. I do believe, and studies had shown, that golf carts do not  speed up the game. So if we eliminated golf carts, then the game would take less time and golf would grow?

I played one morning as a twosome. I walked while the other fellow rode a cart. Since the cart paths were far from the greens. I could walk directly to the next tee before he could walk back to his cart and drive up to the next tee. We played in 2:45. Sure we didn't get to talk much.

[Kyle Harris]

Carts and the growth of the game (or lack thereof) are unrelated in my opinion.

It could boil down to more golfers playing less frequently as opposed to less golfers playing more frequently... if that makes sense.

[Chris Cupit]

There are a lot of reasons golf is too expensive (particularley in the US) but I'd blame the level of expectations re: conditioning and "club amenities" way before I'd point the finger at cart paths.

Just a thought--how many courses in Atlanta would even be playable by 90% of todays golfers if there were no carts available??

[Kyle Harris]

Chris,

I often wonder how much the idea of a half mile (okay, that's exaggerating, but 200-300 yards isn't) between green to the next tee (often through housing) is justified because 80% of golfers ride anyway. Having a tee reasonably close to the previous green no longer matters because the market exists for a riding culture.

That's one of the reasons I feel that some of the most important golf design happens between the green and the next tee.

[TEPaul]

"Ryan,
The golf cart is banned for competition. I think the only way the golf cart could see restricted use is if the USGA were to not consider rounds of golf played with a golf cart for GHIN Handicapping purposes, or perhaps if some sort of modifier were placed on rounds  with a cart."

Kyle:

If the USGA were to do something like that they would effectively kill the use of their "handicap system" and their GHIN system which is merely a handicap provider and not an actual "handicap system" which is basically their formulae and the concept of "peer review" along with a few other recommendations of what constitutes proper posting for handicap purposes.  

[Kyle Harris]

Tom:

I wholeheartedly agree. No way in hell that happens, but it would probably be the only way to "regulate" cart usage.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris,

I often wonder how much the idea of a half mile (okay, that's exaggerating, but 200-300 yards isn't) between green to the next tee (often through housing) is justified because 80% of golfers ride anyway. Having a tee reasonably close to the previous green no longer matters because the market exists for a riding culture.

That's one of the reasons I feel that some of the most important golf design happens between the green and the next tee.

Interesting "chicken or egg" question.  While I am not sure I would suspect multiple factors led to the dominence of carts in the states:
1.  Development golf and the explosion of the middle class and home ownership particulalrly after WW II.  Owning a home on a golf course was a way of saying "i've arrived" and homebuilders quickley realized the real and perceived value of golf course lots.
2.  Club technology that really started in 1930s with steel shafts were a double bonus as they helped make the game more playable AND more affordable versus old hickory shafts.
3.  Post war prosperity and Arnold Palmer helped "democritize" the game and more and more people wanted to play--some of those who needed a cart to be able to play golf.
4.  The "gadget, lifestyle" mentality of the 50's in America--automatic dishwasher, power everything on cars, air conditioning, televisions.etc...I think contributed to the notion that "cart golf" was "progress

[Richard Boult]

I'd love to be there during Kyle's interaction with the cart attendant! And I'd be right there backing him up. I'd love to see all the non-essentials (and related costs) removed from more public courses. I don't need to be greeted by a host, be provided with a bag dropoff, have my clubs cleaned after the round, or be told how many yards away the pin is from my cart by gps system, or a ride in a cart for that matter. However, it appears that many now expect this level of service, so it won't go away, at least at resort locations.

Interestingly, around here, it's the young golfers who wont' play golf without a cart. They don't "need" the exercise, so they prefer not to walk. Since that's the golf they know and expect, I doubt you could take it away from them and expect them to embrace walking. Carts, and all the other non-essentials, are here to stay... and Kyle and I have to pay for it whether we like it or not.  Too bad for those of us who just wanna play golf.

That said, I have to tip my hat to Monarch Dunes (and Kemper Sports who manages its operations). They opened here in Jan 2006 and started off wanting to enforce a dress code and having employees meet you in the parking lot to take your bag and drive you 30 yards to the pro shop. Now, I happily walk to the pro shop in my jeans and collared shirt without being interfered with by employees wanting my bag and a tip... and I can walk any time of any day!  They've cut non-essentials to such a degree that I walked yesterday at noon for $21. You won't find better golf for less anywhere in California.

Another nearby course, which I now rarely play, requires I take a cart on Friday-Sunday and kicks me off the range if I forget that collared shirt (kidding - I'm at least willing to dress up that much).

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ryan,
There isn't a golf market in America where you cannot find a reaonably priced place to play, and one that you can also walk.  

[Kyle Harris]

Ryan,
There isn't a golf market in America where you cannot find a reaonably priced place to play, and one that you can also walk.  

And are any of those courses any good? One that would appeal to a thoughtful golf architecture student like Ryan or myself?

[Joe Hancock]

Ryan,
There isn't a golf market in America where you cannot find a reaonably priced place to play, and one that you can also walk.  

And are any of those courses any good? One that would appeal to a thoughtful golf architecture student like Ryan or myself?

You two are not "the people".

But, the answer is likely yes, there is courses that you can walk cheaply that you two would like: Wilmington(NC)Muni (Ross), Shadow Ridge (MI, also Ross), etc.

Joe

[Kyle Harris]

I'm in Tampa, Fl.

Ryan is at ASU.

I think we both recognize that there are places we can go... but in order to see different courses (within reason, might I add) we need to constantly compromise and give up a little more time and money to play them.

There is no reason to mandate cart use, period.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do you think I would be wrong in asserting that when most people walked, golf grew. Now that most people ride, golf is shrinking?

Yes, you would be wrong.[/color]

I think there is no proof that carts bring more people to the game.

So you think that more caddies would be employed if carts weren't available ?

So do I.

You'd need more caddies to carry the lame, the infirmed and the aged.[/color]

Garland,

Golf took off at about the same time that the cart came into regular use.

In the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's.

Others claim it was Arnold Palmer and TV.

Take your choice, or both.

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