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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2002, 10:46:24 PM »
Rich -

To me, that is actually encouraging. With the current state regarding politics, the environment & new course development, I would cry myself to sleep every night if the only way a great course could be built was to have a 10 site. Those sites are likely off-limits for a long time. Even in the UK. But maybe not down under. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2002, 04:30:04 AM »
Whoa, Rich, you'd better upgrade Merion's number as a great raw site fast and delete that post after you've done it or the Merion Tradtitions Committee will have its West Coast agent pay you a visit and those visits aren't pretty!

Merion has some of the most interesting "natural landform holes" anywhere and that's the raw site! Have you ever seen a better use of a complete natural landorm than Merion's #5? #16 ain't bad either. The fact that the course uses roads and boundaries as an elemental part of it's strategy has nothing to do with it and frankly is damn interesting and unique!

George Pazin:

Applebrook's site is an odd one! Once long ago it might have been quite good as it was an old farm but for some decades was turned into a Smith Kline animal R&D center and then was graded for office buildings (massive flat earth platforms) for a sale to another company that never happened. The prinicples are all builders so there is a residential area that's not ideal for the course.

But I was really interested to see what Gil would do with those building platforms and  what he did do was quite brilliant--#8 being a good example! But Applebrook was not a great raw site.

Actually Gil has had raw sites across the spectrum I think. Inniscrone being immensely complex, problematic and segmented. Alabama, I've never seen but quite good I heard. Tall Grass I've never seen. The new French Creek is bucolic but has wetland complexities and also appears very segmented. Rustic Canyon is a far different look, of course, but is a great site really. Rustic just may be the most extreme example in modern times of a golf course whose holes and architecture is basically "work-ups" off of natural landforms and some of the subtlest and most miniscule natural features anyone can imagine. If you don't know what I mean by that there are plenty of before and after photos that can prove it! But Rustic is a great site!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2002, 07:57:33 AM »
Tom

It is Wilson's "use" of the landform at Merion #5 that makes the hole, not the landform itself.  Meadows which drain down into streams are a dime a dozen in the Northeast US.  I'd be surprised if you don't have one on your farm!

George

Don't throw away the handkerchiefs yet. It's only my opinion that great golf can be and has been built on non-optimal sites.  Those of the pure naturalist school may tend to disagree. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2002, 08:04:26 AM »

Quote
Tom

(G)reat golf can be and has been built on non-optimal sites.  

Winged Foot (2) and Pinehurst #2 come readily to mind.  Or did we do this already?

Hard to beat a good site well used, though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2002, 08:53:10 AM »
Rich:

There's no difference at all (if we're talking about great natural sites for golf) between the natural landform which Merion's #5 is, for instance, and Wilson's ability to "use" it!

Of course it has to be "used" properly to be a great hole but even if it wasn't used properly it still would have been the same great natural landform for golf and that hole, just used improperly!

That sort of thing points out some of the complexities of golf architecture, most particularly the routing process. Wilson just identified Merion's # 5 landform and did very little to it except use it as is. But imagine if due to routing considerations he happened to end up with the previous green at #5s green end instead of the other way around and used it in reverse--the hole would not be a quarter as good. Or if Jones/MacKenzie had the tee 20 yds behind Rae's Creek instead of at the green-end! Both natural landforms would have been as good just used badly!

You and I might look at these things entirely differently but that's the subjectivity of golf and architecture, I guess. The so-called "plain" at Pacific Dunes is part of what makes that course to me--it's a great transition into another look and feel--which is a wonderful shift for golf!

If some architect misuses a great natural landform, that says nothing to me at all about the great natural landform except that he misused it.

And I also don't really subscribe to the theory that there are other great routings or holes on some of the world's best courses, as was mentioned not long ago about Cypress Point. Making a theoretical point like that really doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm just from the Missouri School of thought, that if someone wants to make a point like that then "show me" don't just say it is true or has to be theoretically true and leave it at that.

There's nothing even remotely interesting about a theoretical point in architecture that can't be shown and proven somehow.

All of what I say is meant to indicate that what some architects can do and do really well is a complex and impressive art in some cases that shows particular talent. You on the other hand, don't seem to think so, for some reason.

A great site and a great natural landform is just that and of course it takes a Hugh Wilson to "use" it properly for which he should be given real credit and his talent should be recognized for it. God knows, others might not see it or worse yet change it by bull-dozing it beyond recognizability.

But I'm not one that subsribes to the idea that you must have a great natural site to create a great golf course. But if you do have a great site, then lets hope you use it properly and then that may be as good as it ever could have been--and that takes a great natural landform to start and architectural talent to recognize it, in my opinion, and particularly if almost nothing is done to it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2002, 09:24:42 AM »
Tom

I actually think we are in almost complete agreement, which may be disturbing to you, but not to me! :)  I very much agree that the work of golf course architecture is "complex and impressive."  In fact, that's most of what I have been trying to say on this thread! ;)

This thread started by Pat M. asking where the next great golf course would be located, and my contribution has been to posit that it depends far more on the developers and the architects and the external circumstances (permits, access to the property and to markets, etc.) than on the land forms.  If it were the latter, the GCA world would be centered in Mullen, Nerbraska or County Clare, rather than in Philadelphia. ;)

To me a great landform for golf is one that just hits you in the face when you see it and screams out GOLF ME!!!!, as Sand Hills apparently did to C&C.  For all their virtues, neither Bandon, Oregon, nor the land on which FH is being built did that for me.  You may disagree.  Vive la difference!

On a final point, we'll never know what other golf courses might have been built on the land that became Cypress Point, but I just cannot beleive that there were and are other golf courses on that land that MacKenzie just didn't see, or saw but did not beleive were as good as the one he finally chose to build.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2002, 09:28:36 AM »
...that last paragraph should have read:

"On a final point, we'll never know what other golf courses might have been built on the land that became Cypress Point, but I just cannot beleive that there were NOT and are NOT other golf courses on that land that MacKenzie just didn't see, or saw but did not believe were as good as the one he finally chose to build."

 :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2002, 11:37:17 AM »
Kyle Hegland,  I couldn't find anything on Plattalia Club through search engines.  Do you have access to pictures or more info?  What makes it so exciting?

 Sir Richard Goodale,  

 Regarding #8. FH not as 'isolated' as Bandon Dunes?  Depends on perspective and isn't Friar's Head exclusively private?  Aproachable but not touchable.  (I know, we're talking about the site, not the club)

  Also, back to the site, 'Natural drainage of soil' and 'soil quality' not in criteria?

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2002, 11:56:32 AM »
Fellows, as already stated above, there are no shortage of sites and regions that scream "golf me!"   Nebraska sand hills is nothing new to golf course design junkies.  I suspect that Ron Whitten's contribution to sand hills ideas existed in his mind since his youth growing up there in Nebraska and evidenced by one of the first pictures in the C&W book depicting Nebraska sand hills as ideal "linksland".  He also has a picture of Troia in Portugal as an example of pure linksland. (although I do think we have come for enough to no longer imporperly refer to those lands as linksland, and know they are a subcategory of sand hill prairieland/grassland, and coastal dunesland).

I also agree that some of these ideal sites hold the potential for multiple routings and design theme/concepts.   We will never know what we missed had some other sensitive and visionary golf arhitect/designer gotten to Sand Hills first.  I wonder if Pete Dye was given first crack at it since he built Firethorn for Youngscap first.  Maybe Dye spun out the opportunity to his early associate Coore as a sort of launching of a young talented associate who was fascinated with Maxwell's work and that his sensitivities seemed a fit due to Prairie Dunes concepts.  By that time, if Dye had anything to do with recommendations, Doak could have also had a crack at it theoretically.  At any rate, Sand Hills as it is reflects just one team's vision and I have no doubt that other visions could have been just as exciting if the basic feel for the land and good golf sense existed within the designer.

But it remains that the next great one will come from the head and gut of the developer as they always have.  Then we can debate endlessly if it turned out to be the highest best use of the next great site by the architect/designer who is lucky enough to get a crack at it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tim Weiman

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2002, 12:16:33 PM »
Tom Paul:

I'm surprised by your comments about the other "theoretical" routing for Cypress Point.  If you keep making such statements, I'll have to burn some frequent flyer miles and join Bob Huntley for a couple days to explore the issue and perhaps provide a few more details.

Boy, I wish I had the time!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

K.Hegland

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2002, 07:46:52 PM »
Slag,
I could tell you more about Plattalia Club, but then my life might me in danger, its a pretty hush hush subject, what makes it special is the time and love that has been invested in this project, I would highly doubt you'll find anything on it.  The owner/designer is really taking his time with it, not rushing anything, I'm fortunate that I'll get to be a member when it opens, when that is for sure is still up in the air, I think they'll have a memb ;Dership of around 20, thats right 20 ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2002, 08:31:49 PM »
Tim & Rich:

You're surprised by my comments again on your mention of theoretically better routings and courses on the site that's Cypress?

Why? Is it really too much to ask you to give me some indication of how--even a tiny little glimpse somewhere how that might be--instead of just a theoretical; "I just can't believe that there were NOT and are NOT other golf courses out there that Mackenzie didn't see?"

I won't ask you to even attempt to visulize a wholly different routing that might be better--naturally that's very hard to do and would take real familiarity on your part, so how about just how to improve on a hole somehow, anyway at all--give me just a little something instead of the theoretical, "It has to be."

How about something real simple which actually architects are apt to do independent of each other sometimes--reverse the routing?

Take the first hole from present 18th green down to maybe the left of #17 green site. Take #2 down #17 as a dogleg left with the cliffs on the left instead of the right to some great position near where #16 green is --maybe even exactly where it is. Then take the famous #16th from a tee on it's green site position back to near its present tee, or maybe from a tee on it's present safe play area to a green somewhere down near #15 green with a short tricky par 4 with the ocean on the left, maybe an ocean carry off the tee or even a green across the cut to near #15 tee.  

I'm not denying what you say exactly but just give me something---anything, be more than happy to seriously comment on it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2002, 09:13:38 PM »
Tom

I'd like to accomodate you, but as I've never played Cypress and only walked bits of it a few times during long ago Crosby's, and as those times were usually at the end of a long stint sitting on the hill overlooking the 16th tee, drinking shooters and watching golfers make fools of themselves, I can't remember much about what I did see anyway.

You seem to have made a good start, however.  What's wrong with the Reverse CPC, other than with the ocean holes out of the way early the inland holes will really have to be something special?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2002, 09:44:35 PM »
Tom P:  I tend to agree that different architects will find different stuff on the same land.  I remember Bill Coore rolling his eyes at another designer's plan for Kapalua, which had holes down in the canyon between #5 and #6!

The only project which both Bill and I have drawn routings for is yet to be built (by Bill), but when the time comes I'll be really curious to see how much different it will be.  I suspect it will be very different, because there is a lot of property to choose from there; but then again Marion Hollins had prime pickings at Cypress Point, too.

RJ:  some Sand Hills history:  Pete Dye was offered the job by Dick Y. over the phone.  He turned it down without understanding what it was, which was fine with Dick, who was already leaning toward Bill and Ben.  Both Bill and I love Pete Dye, but he has never referred a job to me, and I don't think he has to Bill either.  (We wouldn't expect him to, since he has sons who need work.)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2002, 10:13:14 PM »
TD, I should bite my tongue but here goes... :-/

By the looks of Lost Canyons Shadow course, they need more than just the work...  ::)  :-X
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

melville

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2002, 08:07:57 PM »

Quote
I had heard about a piece of land in Long Island next to NGLA that was going to be developed into a Jack Nicklaus golf course (backed by some of the folks who were behind The Medalist)...

Rumor is that the property (currently known as Bayberry Land) is spectacular.

Bingo. Simply the best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2002, 08:25:06 PM »
Li Golf,

What courses that Nicklaus designed lead you to believe a that great course will be built on this site ?

Which one of his courses would you transpose to this site ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

melville

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2002, 08:37:18 PM »
What makes you think Nicklaus is the designer?

The site is awsome. It will be a great course whoever designs it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2002, 09:04:52 AM »
Li Golf,

A lucky guess  :)

Do you still think the course will be as great as you hope ?

Who would you choose to design a course on that site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

melville

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2002, 09:36:41 AM »

Quote
Li Golf,

A lucky guess  :)

Do you still think the course will be as great as you hope ?

Who would you choose to design a course on that site.

I think whoever does it has such an awesome and unique piece of property, that there is no way it can get messed up. I really can't pinpoint one designer to be honest. Who would you say? :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #70 on: May 11, 2002, 11:39:27 AM »
Now that Dos Pueblos Golf Links in Santa Barbara, CA seems to be back on again has anyone had a good look at the site?

As you can see from this photo the location is spectacular and I am really looking forward to what Coore & Crenshaw can do with it.
http://www.cph-inc.com/dospueblos.cfm
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #71 on: May 11, 2002, 11:42:33 AM »


"I think whoever does it has such an awesome and unique piece of property, that there is no way it can get messed up."  LI Golf

    Imagine having a rough diamond.  It is rare and and has all the features that a diamond officianado could hope a gem to have.  Now, who do you choose?  

  I choose the one who sees the most worth in the natural land.  Not the one who sees the most worth in his portfolio. Or the one that has the name that has meant success before for selling condos.  

 I have seen courses that are on pretty amazing geology and have seen their potential ruined forever (FOREVER!!!) by standardization of thought process.  (Repeat after me.."Standardization of Thought Process is evil.")  It tweeks my gourd... forever(!)  

  I couldn't choose an architect for that land next to NGLA as I have never seen it and would need to talk to several archies before choosing one (or more).  I'd also talk to the shapers, etcetera.   One salesman does not make a crew.  

Kyle H, Sounds very exciting.  I hope you like those other 19 people you'll be golfing with.   ;)

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #72 on: May 11, 2002, 12:16:25 PM »
Slag,
  Plattalia Club is destin to be great. I've seen pictures and it will be memorable. The designer has deep Crystal Downs roots, so that flavor is transformed over. I will make a splash when it's all finished. I know that I will be one of Kyle's first guests and this will be a high profile club. I think that Kyle needs to put together a course profile for GCA.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

melville

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #73 on: May 11, 2002, 12:33:29 PM »

Quote


"I think whoever does it has such an awesome and unique piece of property, that there is no way it can get messed up."  LI Golf

    Imagine having a rough diamond.  It is rare and and has all the features that a diamond officianado could hope a gem to have.  Now, who do you choose?  

  I choose the one who sees the most worth in the natural land.  Not the one who sees the most worth in his portfolio. Or the one that has the name that has meant success before for selling condos.  

 I have seen courses that are on pretty amazing geology and have seen their potential ruined forever (FOREVER!!!) by standardization of thought process.  (Repeat after me.."Standardization of Thought Process is evil.")  It tweeks my gourd... forever(!)  

  I couldn't choose an architect for that land next to NGLA as I have never seen it and would need to talk to several archies before choosing one (or more).  I'd also talk to the shapers, etcetera.   One salesman does not make a crew.  

Kyle H, Sounds very exciting.  I hope you like those other 19 people you'll be golfing with.   ;)

  


There will be no condos. Whoever is the architect will realize that he has a chance to make history. I am confident the land will be used right and there will be very little grading. this may well be ione the easiest golf courses to create because of its natural beauty.

I will tell you this. Fazio won't get close to it. It will be done right.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Where's the next great one located ?
« Reply #74 on: May 11, 2002, 12:48:37 PM »
Quote


"Whoever is the architect will realize that he has a chance to make history." ...
To make history (his story?) or historically timeless playing ground?
 "I am confident the land will be used right and there will be very little grading."... A con man is a man who gains confidence.  Beware those that have all the answers.
"This may well be one of the easiest golf courses to create because of its natural beauty." ...  This, again, is why total care in consideration of land should be elevated to a higher standard.   "Easy" ,to me, implies it won't take much thought.  It should require unending thought.



  I share your excitement LI. I'm with you that this land must be special.  I'd just like to point out that we have an obligation to ourselves and to generations to come later that what we have as special should not be taken lightly by those that will manipulate what is there.  It comes down to "worth ethic".  
 

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

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