Seeding to poa

[Bill_Overdorf]

 I find myself in the middle of a quandary in that I have a project manager making noises about his newfound interest in seeding new greens to poa rather than bent. Although I am well aware that these greens are destined to revert to poa over the long haul, I am highly reluctant to make this move at the outset. The project is in the Pacific northwest, typical 38" annual rainfall, USGA greens sans the choker layer, etc. Ample maintenance budget in a location with little wind and heat problem. Irrigation system is to be  multi-row either Rain Bird or Hunter, valve-in-head either case. What can you lend?  

Thanks.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bill- I'm one of the few who appreciate the qualities of Poa. And, as some of the supers can attest with Primo (?), one can control the perenial which leaves only the annual.

 Also, if the course in question has undulating greens, the loss of potential speed may be an advantage for the locals. All of the courses on the Monteray Peninsula have it, and the courses manage it to a real consistency, most of the time. Even the public ones.

I feel I must confess the nature of my bias for fairness purposes.

 I use to like putting on lightening, but then my touch was all finese and I would invariably come up short, all the time. When I learned to putt poa, I learned to attack the putt. That attitude (approach) has helped me on every other surface I've faced or will face.

[Peter Galea]

Bill,
What is your source of poa annua seed? The only one I know of that is commercially available is Peterson's Creeping Bluegrass.
From what I've heard, it is quite "seedy" once mature.

[Mike Benham]

Irrigation system is to be  multi-row either Rain Bird or Hunter, valve-in-head either case.

I'd be interested to hear how the selection between Rain Bird and Hunter turns out.  What will be the determining factors?  Back in the mid-90s, Hunter's golf line of rotors never quite caught on even though they had the res/com market with the PGP line of rotors.

Is price an issue?  Always is but the bigger Rain Bird factory usually has a way to make the pricing competitive if it is a course that they need/want for their market share ...

[ian]

Bill,

I have seen multiple examples of using bent and aeration cores working very well. Dennis is going to use rye and poa cores to do the 17th fairway at Capilano.

Call Dennis Pelrene up at Capilano for his opinion. I'm pretty sure that the super maintains a poa nursury green at Marine Drive too.

Ian

[Bill_Overdorf]

Many thanks for your responses and timely advice. I assure you it is greatly appreciated.

Adam, I really thank you for your knowledgeable input as to the pros and cons of this rather elusive topic. Not too much out there for a neophyte such as I in this department. I have never had an interest in seeding Poa and therefore I have no base on which to work. You mention Primo. Is this one of the varieties other than the Peterson's Creeping Bluegrass stated by Pete Galea? Please respond by email if you will be so kind.

Pete, I have not, as you may have deduced from the above, determined a source to be considered for Poa seed, but I notice with interest your reference to the seedy condition Peterson's Creeping Blue developes when mature. Could you elaborate?

Mike, the consideration of Rain Bird or Hunter is a personal thing. I have historically maintained a preference for Rain Bird, but witnessing the Hunter operational features gives me cause to pause. I am particularly impressed with Hunter's ability to service their heads through the top without any disruption by digging. We also have a couple of areas on a new track that will require full circle distribution for propagation but to be trimmed back to part circles for sculpting and the Hunter heads seem to have an edge in that regard. Perhaps I am too easily swayed, but I posted an inquiry here some time back and the concensus seemed to be quite favorable in the Hunter department.

Ian, Thanks for your suggestions. I most certainly will contact Dennis Pelrene at Capilano to hear his first hand comments about Poa's use.

Thanks to all. If any others out there have something to add, please chime in.

Bill

[RJ_Daley]

I seem to remember a pretty good article in GCM magazine about 2-3 years ago on the experimentation of seeding greens originally with poa at a turf facility out east... density, fertility, disease resistance, etc.

[Bob_Huntley]

If you want the definitive answer re poa on the Monterey Peninsula call Bob Zoller at 831-373-1556. There is no better resource.

[Doc]

Bill,
 "Although I am well aware that these greens are destined to revert to poa over the long haul."?  

I have to disagree with your statement.  I know of several courses that have the new variety bents that have managed to keep the poa out with pre-emergent and mechanical removal.  Although I have played on some fine poa greens, none compare to the new bents!!  I also saw an article about a new chemical that is coming out of Michigan State that will knock out poa.  You may want to look into it. It is called Velocity.

[Bill_Overdorf]

Doc, To what new bent varieties are you referring? Also what pre-emergents are considered effective? You mention a chemical called Velocity out of Michigan State. Anything further on this? Anyone else?

[Doc]

Bill,
I am refering to the A and G series bents.  Bensumec is widely used in the spring as a preemergent.  I saw a small article about velocity a couple of months ago.  The chemical was used in agriculture and was stumbled upon for controling poa.  The photos were quite impressive.  The article stated that it will be in limited use this summer and registered for sale next year.  You may want to call Tee to Green seed company and ask if any of the new bents have been purchased for use in your area and call the clubs and talk to them.  

[Pat_McGuire]

Northlands Golf Course in North Vancouver BC overseeded with Poa Reptans. Because of the cool wet climate, they were having real probems growing bent and the native poa wasn't taking over fast enough.  Being a municipal public course, open year around, the greens were taking a beating.

Reptans has been a real improvement.  However, there are issues that could make it a poor decision in the long-run.  It is much coarser than our native poa and has large seed heads.  Susceptibilty to fusarium has been an issue.  Plus it is very agressive, so it is unlikely that the native poa will ever dominate.

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
Primo is a PGR (a growth regulator) similar to TGR (Trimit) or Cutless.  Primo slows the growth of poa (more so than bent) and is being used by more and more leading edge Superintendents.  
Mark

[Doc]

Bill,
Latest edition of Golf Course News has an article on the front page about Velocity.  Leave me your fax # if you would like and I will fax you a copy.  If it works as good as they say, someone will make billions!!

[Bill_Overdorf]

Doc:

Many thanks for your considerate offer. Regrettably, I fail to find the GCN article on Velocity. Will you please fax same to (360) 354-5704? Thanks again to you and all in this matter.

[Eric Johnson]

Doc,
How many Poa control products have been marketed over the years?  Now, how many have worked?

Bill,
I would recommend contacting Tom Huesgen or Jack Holt at PBGL.  The chipping green south of the PB driving range was seeded with Petersons creeping bluegrass fall of 1999.  It looked pretty good late spring of 2000 when I moved.  They will have some longer term opinions-observations on the seeded Poa annua var. reptans.

Also, there is a sod company out of Vancouver, BC that used to list Poa annua sod on their website.  I think the name is Boss Sod or Bos Sod.  Another, resource would be Tom Cook at Oregon State University.  He has probably seen more Poa annua and associated control products than all of us combined.

Lastly, Dr.(?) David Huff out of Penn State was collecting germplasm to initiate a Poa annua breeding program a few years ago.  I am not sure if this program is still active.  But he would be another source of information almost on the same level as Tom Cook.

Which project are you working on?

BTW, good luck with your search!

[Doc]

Bill,
I will fax it to you today

EJ
I know exactly what you are saying and have seen the poa control products kill more bent than poa.  I get overly excited every time a new one comes out and can't help but wish I would be in on the millions that someone will make!!   We will be testing Velocity at our club this season, so I will find out first hand if it works.  I say this every time a new product comes out, but this one does look very promising.

[Doc]

Bill,
Did you get my fax? I know by then your descision will be made, but I will let you know how the product works this fall.  

[Bill_Overdorf]

Doc, Yes indeed I did receive your timely fax and would like to thank you for same. I'm not typically rude and try to tend to matters in a timely fashion, but this time I failed. FYI, I have a message into Tom Cook at OSU with an inquiry about poa reptans and Velocity and the suitability and effectiveness of each. I will copy his to you upon receipt.

All the best, Bill

[A_Clay_Man]

Bill- This weeks "superintendent news" has some great stuff on Dr. Huff and his vision for poa annua and it's heartiness.

[Bill_Overdorf]

Thanks, Adam. Can you give me the publication's name that I might dig around and find it?

[Doc]

Bill,
It is Golfweek's Superintendent News.  I will fax you the article.

[birdymaker]

It would seem to me that one of the best places to go for help on this issue would be the USGA Northwest Region agronomist...Mr. Larry Gilhuly who you can reach at 253-858-2266.  Mr. Gilhuly has been the turfgrass "guy" for the USGA for the last +/- 22 years in the Northwest so he should be able to answer questions about Poa etc. as weel as anyone in the area.