The five best pieces of land for golf that Ron Whitten has ever seen.

[John Mayhugh]

When an architect calls a piece of land the best he's ever seen (or one of the five best), then how is he suggesting we judge the course?  If it's top 5 in land, should the course end up being at least in the top 25?  If it isn't, then has the architect failed?

I realize that there are a host of other factors that affect what sort of course actually gets built (e.g. environmental restrictions) but it seems like these greatest land for golf kind of comments should set expectations really really high.  

[John Kavanaugh]

It is hard to imagine that Pine Valley and Augusta National would not be on that list.

I would think that Augusta National is too hilly to be considered a great piece of land.  It was much harder to walk than Erin Hills.

[wsmorrison]

John,

I don't know Erin Hills, but are you sure he discounts hilly properties as great sites for golf just because Erin Hills (odd name if it isn't hilly, though I don't think Southern Hills is really hilly either) does not provide a similar topography?  

[Anthony Butler]

It is hard to imagine that Pine Valley and Augusta National would not be on that list.

I would think that Augusta National is too hilly to be considered a great piece of land.  It was much harder to walk than Erin Hills.

Following on from that point, a course that allows easy walking from both tee to green and almost as important, green to tee is also of prime importance in judging the quality of a piece of land. Although part of this is also due to the routing proposed by the architect.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I don't know Erin Hills, but are you sure he discounts hilly properties as great sites for golf just because Erin Hills (odd name if it isn't hilly, though I don't think Southern Hills is really hilly either) does not provide a similar topography?  

Erin Hills is very hilly, just not bizarro hilly like ANGC.  I have only been to ANGC once as a spectator and have never been so tired on a golf course in my life.  I admire those old men who manage to play and walk year after year.

[Anthony Butler]

Erin Hills is very hilly, just not bizarro hilly like ANGC.  I have only been to ANGC once as a spectator and have never been so tired on a golf course in my life.  I admire those old men who manage to play and walk year after year.

If it rains at Augusta, they should have an EMT truck to the left of the 18th just picking up all the old folks who fall over trying to clamber up that hill. I am sure none of them complain for fear of having their season passes revoked...

[Dieter Jones]

Dieter:

The site across the river from Barnbougle is just a different piece of dunes -- bigger, as you describe, which brings both positives and negatives.  I'm sure Bill will do a great job with it.

However, if I really thought it was a BETTER site, I would have lobbied harder to do the job.  I'm happy to see if they can top that next door.
I guess it's just human nature to like the sites that you are more intimately familiar with, though.  



So you are saying that the less extreme forms on the Barnbougle site (as opposed to the lost farm site over the river) were like those you had already successfuly worked with in the past?

I was wondering if a similar opportunity came up with both of those types of land again (and you had a choice which to build on), would you be drawn to the same type of terrain (go with the familiar that you had been successful with in the past) or would the desire to test yourself on something different be strong enough to make you change?

Obviously the satisfaction of your client with the end result is top priority so is it better to "play it safe" on the familiar land? I understand that this sort of land comes up so rarely for an architect that it may be a moot point, I guess I'm just wondering where the commercial side of design gives over to the artistic side. Are you GCA's all just hard nosed businessmen playing it safe or is the inner Bohemian busting out looking for a chance to shine?

[Tom_Doak]

Dieter:

In general, I prefer to work on sites that will be different than my previous courses ... but sand dunes are so varied that it's really a moot point.  In your hypothetical example, I'm just going to pick whichever site looks like it has the most potential.

It's really no different than having 1000 acres of dunes to work with at Ballyneal and picking what I thought was the best part of it to locate the golf course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Erin Hills is very hilly, just not bizarro hilly like ANGC.  I have only been to ANGC once as a spectator and have never been so tired on a golf course in my life.  I admire those old men who manage to play and walk year after year.

John,

I will say this for ANGC.  

Two years ago my brother and I brought my 78 year old dad there for one of the practice rounds.   My dad had a heart attack and quad bypass two years prior and I figured that we'd likely find him a spot up near the clubhouse, preferably a bleacher seat, and share a relaxing day.  

Instead, somehow magically my dad seemed to suddenly shrink back to a 40 year old, and we spent about 8 hours traversing every hole, before finally grabbing a seat off the 16th tee to watch players trying to skip balls across the pond.  

My dad has had the energy to play exactly one round of golf since, 9 holes with my brother, my nephew, and I later that summer.  He's still with us, thank God, but these days when I suggest maybe playing again he always has some reason why it's not feasible, or why he's not up to it.

Truth be told, I think whatever he had left he used up that day, but what a glorious way to go out.

[Jed Peters]

John,

I will say this for ANGC.  

Two years ago my brother and I brought my 78 year old dad there for one of the practice rounds.   My dad had a heart attack and quad bypass two years prior and I figured that we'd likely find him a spot up near the clubhouse, preferably a bleacher seat, and share a relaxing day.  

Instead, somehow magically my dad seemed to suddenly shrink back to a 40 year old, and we spent about 8 hours traversing every hole, before finally grabbing a seat off the 16th tee to watch players trying to skip balls across the pond.  

My dad has had the energy to play exactly one round of golf since, 9 holes with my brother, my nephew, and I later that summer.  He's still with us, thank God, but these days when I suggest maybe playing again he always has some reason why it's not feasible, or why he's not up to it.

Truth be told, I think whatever he had left he used up that day, but what a glorious way to go out.

Wow.

That is quite a story. Almost got all teary-eyed!

Thanks for that. I'd imagine that Augusta would have that effect on people!

[Adam Clayman]

I haven't heard anyone on this board say Dismal River comes close to matching Sand Hills.  Was DR's land not as good?  Did JN's team not spend enough time routing, or simply are not as good architects?    

Jim, These are some good questions.
 There appears to be greater elevation changes at DR. Not only more of them, but also much more abrupt or steeper climbs than at SH. Also, the directional aspect of the dunes seem completely different. THis may be due to the river and the course it takes? I'm not astute enough to know why the differences exist.

It was my initial impression, that JN's team needed to melt down the severity to improve on the golf. In many cases they have, or should I say, their Super has done that.
The interesting part of the whole matter is the timing. JN goes minimalist right after working at Sebonack. There's no doubt that it takes an indeterminable amount of time to figuring the best use of the terrain, for any golf project. I wonder if Chris Cochran and JN designs have that type of luxury seeing how they have so many jobs.