The five best pieces of land for golf that Ron Whitten has ever seen.

[John Kavanaugh]

He says that Erin Hills is one...Any guesses what the other four must have been.  I have never read if he listed all five but am guessing that Sand Hills, Cypress Point, Shinnecock and Pebble might be in the running.  Any ideas?

[JESII]

Shinnecock would not be one...that was a blank canvas other than #9...

[Garland Bayley]

He says that Erin Hills is one...Any guesses what the other four must have been.  I have never read if he listed all five but am guessing that Sand Hills, Cypress Point, Shinnecock and Pebble might be in the running.  Any ideas?

My, that is a coincidence!
 

[mark chalfant]

Prairie Dunes, fishers Island,  Dornoch    ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe that Bill Coore stated that the Sand Hills of Nebraska was the best land for golf in America.

It would appear that an unlimited number of golf courses could be created in that expanse.

[Garland Bayley]

...
It would appear that an unlimited number of golf courses could be created in that expanse.

Not exactly mathematically astute. But, the land does appear to be good.

[Adam Clayman]

While it is true the land that Sand Hills occupies is perfect for golf, It wasn't as though these guys found it the very first time they were there. And then once they were there, it required a little walking off in this direction, and then a little more fiddling over in that direction. And then, it still required a little more searching over in another direction.

I asked this on another thread... Do the holes at EH get lost in the scale of those glacial features?

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe that Bill Coore stated that the Sand Hills of Nebraska was the best land for golf in America.

It would appear that an unlimited number of golf courses could be created in that expanse.

And Ben Crenshaw said The Riviera was the best designed course in America.  I would have loved to have seen The Riviera before the great flood.  I have a feeling it was one hell of a site.

[John Kavanaugh]

While it is true the land that Sand Hills occupies is perfect for golf, It wasn't as though these guys found it the very first time they were there. And then once they were there, it required a little walking off in this direction, and then a little more fiddling over in that direction. And then, it still required a little more searching over in another direction.

I asked this on another thread... Do the holes at EH get lost in the scale of those glacial features?

Adam,

I don't think so at all.  There are many hidden valleys and peak a boos like at Ballyneal.  Like I said somewhere else the land is very similar in that Erin Hills looks like an image of Ballyneal on a stretched out piece of Silly Puddy.

[Tommy Williamsen]

In GB&I I could list Ballybunion and Royal County Down.

[Mark Pearce]

When he showed us around The Renaissance Club earlier this year I think Tom Doak described the land between Muirfield and the sea as the best land for a golf course he'd seen.  Of course no-one will ever build a course there.......

[Tony_Muldoon]

When he showed us around The Renaissance Club earlier this year I think Tom Doak described the land between Muirfield and the sea as the best land for a golf course he'd seen.  Of course no-one will ever build a course there.......

Mark I believe he did.
Edited (Twice): on reflection I believe he means land more to the west of these.  The land above one day might end up a part of Renaisance.

[Mark Pearce]

Tony,

I'm sure the land he was talking about is HCEG property.  No way it becomes part of The Renaissance.

Mark

[Tony_Muldoon]

It's clearer now.

[George Pazin]

Those photos look kinda like the land for Cabot Links.

Curiously, many have claimed the site for Riviera was one of the worst for golf. Never quite understood that one myself.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Muirfield sold to The Renaissance Club the property in your two photos, in return for a treed buffer strip along the boundary between the two clubs.  Our clients are now exploring planning permission to get two or three holes on the point show in the second photo.  I think it's fairly unlikely, but you never know til you ask nicely.

Muirfield still owns 150 acres of dunes like those in the far distance of the second photo.  There are all sorts of environmental issues connected with it, and because it's in a populous area, those concerns are multiplied.  They will probably never build anything on it, but it's easily one of the best sites I've seen, and I've seen some good ones!

[George Pazin]

Tom -

How does the land differ from some of your other more celebrated seaside sites, like Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, etc.?

[Tom_Doak]

George:  I don't know that it's better than the two you mentioned, but it does have a VERY long water frontage and some beautiful dunes, and it looked like there were a lot of places where you could just lay a green across the existing contours, a la Sand Hills.  But I don't think even that would be enough to get a permit to build on it.

[Jason McNamara]

Tom, speaking of great sites that unfortunately may never see a course, is there anything happening at Kilshannig Cross?  (Similarly, I haven't seen anything on Bartra Island lately.)  

[Matthew Hunt]

RCD, Cypress, Pebble, Sand Hills.

The thing is I can think of three sites in my area that would breeze onto the list.

[Dieter Jones]

Mark:


Muirfield still owns 150 acres of dunes like those in the far distance of the second photo.  There are all sorts of environmental issues connected with it, and because it's in a populous area, those concerns are multiplied.  They will probably never build anything on it, but it's easily one of the best sites I've seen, and I've seen some good ones!

Tom, where does the "lost farm" site at Barnbougle sit amongst your list of potential sites? If the logistics were right at the time would you have preferred to build on the current Barnbougle site or work with the land Bill Coore is currently playing with?

The lost farm looks more dramatic but will surely present more routing challenges if he is to get the most from the site and still make it walkable. I guess this is the type of "problem" most GCA's would like to have.  

[Jim Nugent]

I believe that Bill Coore stated that the Sand Hills of Nebraska was the best land for golf in America.

It would appear that an unlimited number of golf courses could be created in that expanse.

Would those courses be pretty much alike, or would we see lots of variety?  Not that an unlimited number of Sand Hills would be a bad thing!

I haven't heard anyone on this board say Dismal River comes close to matching Sand Hills.  Was DR's land not as good?  Did JN's team not spend enough time routing, or simply are not as good architects?    

[Anthony Butler]

Sorry to be such a homer, but this guy's opinion seems to mean something on this site...

'At Sydney , I made an entirely new course for the New South Wales Golf Club at a place called La Perouse. This is a sand duned peninsula which overlooks Botany Bay and presents, I think, more spectacular views than any other place I know with the possible exception of the new Cypress Point golf course I am doing on the Del Monte peninsula in California.'

Dr Alister MacKenzie, Golf Illustrated, 1927

I would have to agree with him on Cypress Point. Just as Paris is the most beautiful city made by man. Cypress Point is the most beautiful location made by nature where someone has managed to stick a golf course. It is literally 15-17 is literally breathtaking.

Anyway, this isn't too bad either.

[Tom_Doak]

Dieter:

The site across the river from Barnbougle is just a different piece of dunes -- bigger, as you describe, which brings both positives and negatives.  I'm sure Bill will do a great job with it.

However, if I really thought it was a BETTER site, I would have lobbied harder to do the job.  I'm happy to see if they can top that next door.

I guess it's just human nature to like the sites that you are more intimately familiar with, though.  (I think I could find a parallel to that, if I really sat down and thought about it.   )  Look at the title of this thread -- Whitten thinks Erin Hills is a "top-five" site, but when somebody asked last week about the best course we'd designed that we didn't get to build, Erin Hills was only the third one that came to mind, after our dead projects in Hawaii and Ireland.  I guess I'm just a sucker for oceanfront property.

[wsmorrison]

It is hard to imagine that Pine Valley and Augusta National would not be on that list.