Erin Hills Front Nine Overview - What would you change?

[John Kavanaugh]

My only change would be to return the routing to its original configuration where number 18 would once again be number 9.  The walk from 8 green is more natural and this eliminates the mid-round bye hole which is a greater momentum killer than a guy who orders a smoothie at the turn.

Non-architecturally I would also make the $95 sale fee the regular rate and return the course to walking only as I thought was originally intended.  The bar could also use a touch more light and a side of chips with the ruben would be nice.

[CHrisB]

JK,
I too would get rid of the mid-round bye hole, either by flipping the 9th/18th as you mentioned or turning it into a practice area.

I would get rid of the aiming stone on the Dell 7th and maybe put a fixed aiming marker atop the hill behind the green, so that golfers would have to look over to the 7th while playing the 6th to see where the pin is in relation to the marker.

I'd also consider extending the 9th green surface back to incorporate more of the back-left hill and the flatter area behind the green. That green sits high and can firm up more quickly than other greens, and although there is somewhat of a backstop on the left side of the green, it was hard to stop even a spinning wedge on the green when I played there earlier this year.

[Kalen Braley]

If EH were to get a U.S. Open, it'd be interesting if they used the dell hole or skipped it in favor of the bye hole...

[John Kavanaugh]

If EH were to get a U.S. Open, it'd be interesting if they used the dell hole or skipped it in favor of the bye hole...

They will use the Dell hole as it is perfect for television and really quite simple to play.  Like I said above it is one of the few holes in the world more fun to watch being played than to play.

[Phil McDade]

Wasn't Whitten quoted as saying to the effect that the bye hole was created and placed in the routing because they were certain the USGA wouldn't use the Dell hole? Sorry, can't dig up the reference right now......

[John Kavanaugh]

Wasn't Whitten quoted as saying to the effect that the bye hole was created and placed in the routing because they were certain the USGA wouldn't use the Dell hole? Sorry, can't dig up the reference right now......

I can assure you that Whitten is not always correct in his certainties.  I have more faith in the people that run the USGA than most and have a much higher batting rate than Whitten when it comes to matters concerning golf.  So far I have been wrong once.

[Kalen Braley]

Phil,

I thought I had read that once too, hence the question.

I do agree with Barney that the dell hole would likely be a lot of fun to watch on TV. I just don't know if they would have the stuff to put up with the whining that would surely come in bunches about having a totally blind par 3.  Perhaps they could alternate which hole to use on a given day.  Dell on Thursday and Saturday, Bye on the other two?

[Eric_Terhorst]

I would remake the front nine to eliminate #2 and the Dell.  I'm using the 2-D map in the yardage book to place a new hole, so I don't actually know if it possible in 3-D, unless of course you move some dirt.  The current 11 becomes the starting hole and the  current 9 goes to the back nine.  Of course it's too late with respect to the clubhouse location, so this means you have to get a lift from the clubhouse to the starting hole and back from the finisher, but I'd rather do that than play those two holes.

New   Was   Comment
1      11   414 yd Par 4, downhill plays shorter than yardage, perfect starting hole except that it faces south and has tough lighting late in season

2   Bye   164 yd par 3

3   1   574 yd par 5  Works much better as a third hole after a softer start

4   7   New dogleg ~450 yd par 4 that wraps around what is now the 6th green.  Short walk from what is now the 1st green to a new tee.  Possible blind tee shot over a hill to a valley below like the 9th at Royal County Down?  Possible new green on the ridge right above what is now the Dell green, utilizing what is now the Dell green as a collection area for approaches that miss left?  I bet there are alot of possibilities in this part of the property.

5   6   236 yd uphill par 3  Brilliant par 3

6   3   422 yd par 4  Coming off what is now the 6th green, I believe you’re on the same hillock (esker?) that the current 3rd tee sits on top of.  If you're on the same elevation level here, that eliminates the awkward walk up from what is now the ill-conceived 2nd green to the current 3rd tee.

7   4   372 yd par 4

8   5   443 yd par 4

9   8   300 yd par 4  Eliminate back tees, as I agree with John K this is a dull hole.  Make it into a short drivable par 4 with some new bunkering to make it interesting.  Might need a more forward tee for some players to reach this uphill green.

OUT      3375 yd par 35

[tlavin]

An inveterate smart-ass might suggest moving the course to a state with more people than livestock.

[Brad Swanson]

An inveterate smart-ass might suggest moving the course to a state with more people than livestock.

Keep your thoughts to yourself, FIB.

Cheers,
Brad

[tlavin]

An inveterate smart-ass might suggest moving the course to a state with more people than livestock.

Keep your thoughts to yourself, FIB.

Cheers,
Brad

Made my day!

[George Pazin]

Does anyone know how busy they were at the regular season rate? That would indicate how likely it is that they go to a $95 rate full time.

Looking forward to the back nine holes. If nothing else, Erin Hills should be a must play for everyone on here, simply to see how minimalism to an extreme (at least, that's what I've read) works in real life. It ranks pretty damn high on my wish list, right up there with anything outside of Barnbougle or the UK.

[John Kavanaugh]

A guy I was playing with (golf that is) told me that he called for a tee time in September for two weeks out and they were booked full.  I believe they did very, very well.  I was surprised at the upscale nature of the area...I guess it is a short commute from Milwaukee.  I will also say that the infrastructure was execellent from all directions.

[Dan Moore]

This is an excellent question.  I have some ideas that I need to think through when I have more time.  Response later.  

For those of you wondering what in the world the Real Man of Genius was talking about with his cosmic remap of the course maybe these will help.  



The Course under construction.  

[Garland Bayley]

Fix the Dell hole. Certainly it should be left out for any US Open. It simply appears to be the weakest link.

[John Kavanaugh]

Fix the Dell hole. Certainly it should be left out for any US Open. It simply appears to be the weakest link.

What do you mean by fix the Dell hole?  What do you base this on..have you seen it?

[Garland Bayley]

John,

I've seen pictures. For me, that is enough for this hole. Shave the brow of the hill off so the green can be seen and most here would label it terrible to mediocre. You essentially said the green was boring. You get your kicks too easily.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

I've seen pictures. For me, that is enough for this hole. Shave the brow of the hill off so the green can be seen and most here would label it terrible to mediocre. You essentially said the green was boring. You get your kicks too easily.

Garland,

To see the green you would have to cut from the front of the green to the base of the tee.  I'm guessing 45,000 cu yds of dirt to get to the back tee.  That is 180 yds by 50 yds by 15 ft deep.  This is not a shave...it is not immaterial to the design.

I guess I should add that cu yds is short for cubic yards which is like a box of dirt with 3 foot sides.  45,000 is a bunch...along the highway it is worth more than $150,000.00...I do not know golf costs but think I could move it and waste it for that on a big site like Erin Hills.

[CHrisB]

Garland,

Just so I understand you, what exactly should be fixed on the Dell Hole?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Just so I understand you, what exactly should be fixed on the Dell Hole?

As many others have noted, it does not deserve the Dell title, because you are not hitting over anything. The green is just an oval with (according to JakaB) little undulation. There are no severe lies around the hole that even approximate the Dell hole. Blase', Blase' Blase'

Like I wrote before, shave the edge of the hill so the green is visible and you have a hole you could find on any muni, not to mention ones created in a cow pasture by any rank amateur.

Edit: Even minimalists help nature out when necessary. The goal being to keep it natural in that case.

[John Kavanaugh]

Garland,

Hendren said he came up short and had an impossible chip.  I really don't know because out of 19 holes I only had one chip that was not with a putter.  I would guess as hard as those greens were to put that chipping must have been very, very difficult.

Would you quit calling 45,000 cu yds a shave job.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

Hendren said he came up short and had an impossible chip.  I really don't know because out of 19 holes I only had one chip that was not with a putter.  I would guess as hard as those greens were to put that chipping must have been very, very difficult.

Would you quit calling 45,000 cu yds a shave job.

Sorry John, but impossible chips happen everywhere. Many munis that hardly register on the Doak scale will have them. Look at the pictures John. We're talking about severity meaning difficult to stand upright let alone hit a golf shot.

I assume the dirt would be removed with a "pan". I would call what a pan does shaving the ground. I don't know what you would call it. I made no references to the number of passes the pan would have to make.
 

[CHrisB]

Garland,

Just so I understand you, what exactly should be fixed on the Dell Hole?

As many others have noted, it does not deserve the Dell title, because you are not hitting over anything. The green is just an oval with (according to JakaB) little undulation. There are no severe lies around the hole that even approximate the Dell hole. Blase', Blase' Blase'

Like I wrote before, shave the edge of the hill so the green is visible and you have a hole you could find on any muni, not to mention ones created in a cow pasture by any rank amateur.

Edit: Even minimalists help nature out when necessary. The goal being to keep it natural in that case.

Garland,

Those are some pretty strong statements by someone who has not even seen the hole, and apparently not the original Dell hole at Lahinch, either, whose green may have even less undulation than the one at Erin Hills.

And the word Dell has nothing to do with hitting over something; a dell is a valley and that's what the green lies in: a dell.

BTW, you're right in that the terrain around the original Dell green is far more severe than at Erin Hills, but I think it may be more likely to have an awkward chip at the Erin Hills hole, because the ball is more likely to stay on the side of the bank than at the original where the hillsides are so steep and the ball usually bounces down onto the flatter area on/around the green.

That being said, I'll still take the original, but the one at Erin Hills is much better than you think (pictures and hearsay alone aren't enough to capture the true nature of the hole).

[Garland Bayley]

Yes, Chris, but how do the shapes of the greens compare?

Part of the benefit of the severity is the ambiance. EH, lacks severely.

Yes, I do know what a dell is. However, to your query I have to respond, where are the woods?

We are talking golf shots here. That is where it falls short of the original Dell Hole. Worm burners don't work quite so well there.

[CHrisB]

Understood. Just go see or play it and you'll be happy to know that it's not as bad as you think it is. Don't worm-burn it, though--there is no fairway-cut grass on the hole and you'll be left with a very awkward pitch.