Not OT

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

Kyle,

I honestly don't think economic standards equate to someone wearing jeans or someone in more formal attire.  There are enough dressier looking clothes available for the same price as jeans or casual wear, that it isn't that difficult to dress for formal if one chose to.

Then let's bring it to a matter of taste. I think that I can convey respect for the game by wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Why is that wrong?

[Phil McDade]

Phil,

I can certainly understand your aesthetic desires. However, if I were to be invited to your club to play golf, and showed up in well maintained jeans and a clean non-collared shirt... what perceptions would their be by the members before they even met me, played golf with me, or socialized with me?

Kyle:

My "club" is a nine-hole muni whose demographic is probably best described as the Wisconsin annex of the Peter Jans. Jeans and a clean shirt of any kind raises the level of dressiness; the regulars would look down on you not for your dress, but for ordering a Pepsi instead of a Miller Lite after your Sunday morning round.

[Kyle Harris]

I'd rather play with a slovenly golfer who follows the rules than a well-dress cheating scum bag.

Relatively speaking sure, but absolute scales count as well.  Plus, being well-dressed and following the rules doesn't have to be an either/or proposition.

First, slovenly is a strong word.  I'd rather play with an untidy golfer who follows the rules than a slovenly golfer who follows the rules.  Even farther up the chain would be a well-dressed golfer that follows the rules.

Well, at least most of the rules.  I'll be the first to admit that while I've got a pretty good understanding of the rules and I play by the ones I know, I still learn new rules every year.

 

Tim,

Doing your best to uphold the rules is just fine by me, especially if you keep an open and are willing to learn. How you are dressed does not change that.

All,

Don't you realize how absolutely shallow this standard is? Who knows what sort of contributions to the game (in all aspects) are being curtailed because the very nature of this beast is generally perceived as shallow and elitist.

In our efforts to exclude, what are we potentially missing?

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

I can certainly understand your aesthetic desires. However, if I were to be invited to your club to play golf, and showed up in well maintained jeans and a clean non-collared shirt... what perceptions would their be by the members before they even met me, played golf with me, or socialized with me?

Kyle:

My "club" is a nine-hole muni whose demographic is probably best described as the Wisconsin annex of the Peter Jans. Jeans and a clean shirt of any kind raises the level of dressiness; the regulars would look down on you not for your dress, but for ordering a Pepsi instead of a Miller Lite after your Sunday morning round.

  That's wonderful.

Say you were a member at Medinah, then...

[David Stamm]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

I don't necessarily. But I'd imagine because they feel the need to put themselves out for worshipping their higher authority of choice.

Are we now comparing a country club's kangaroo court to God?

Don't jump to conclusions now. The point is, it is an outwardly form of respect. Does this HAVE to be done in order to be actually respectful? That depends on why someone is doing it. For outward appearances, or themselves. BTW, I personally wouldn't consider it "putting my self out" if I was a church goer. If you want to play in something other than the traditonal garb, that's up to you. No one can tell you what's appropriate. Let me know when you try to show up at the club in your swim trunks and tank top though.

[Jordan Wall]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

I think it needs to be known that tucking shirts in should always be mandatory.

Why? I find my shirt being untucked to be far more comfortable. Why can't my attire be comfortable while playing golf?

Let us not forget your first words to me when you saw the picture of me at Kapalua two years ago (wow!).

But you confuse me, a lot, so would you just tell us where this thread is going?

Because, either you have changed your golf course morals (LOL, and I seriously doubt that btw), or you are giving us a load of BS (definite possibility), or you have another one of your crazy theories that somehow makes sense even though it's really hard to explain (ding ding ding)...

Jordan, I apologize.

And looking back on those conversations and that thread, you were very unfairly judged by this group. In fact, I'm ashamed of the way you were treated.

This group completely took one picture of you out of context and judged your intelligence, insight and value to the group as a whole based on how you looked.

I also apologize that I may have contributed to this shallow and superficial attitude. Please, please, please give the people you meet in the future the chance to make an impression on you based on the virtue of their mind and not the clothes on their back, nor the looks on their face. Had we done that, perhaps you would have been given a better chance to show the depth of your mind instead of using your relative immaturity against you on the defensive.

I failed you two years ago, please forgive me.

Kyle,

Your too funny.

If you need forgiveness, you have it.

I still dont understand this though.


Anything else you need, or want to come out with?
Your on a roll...
 

[Tim Bert]

Tim,

Earlier tonight on the phone with Doug Braunsdorf I mentioned my desire to only play at places that will allow me to wear what I want.

I'm interested to know what exactly it is that you desire to wear when playing golf that isn't allowed, and exactly why it is that you wish to wear such things - or is it the principal of the matter.  

Do you really want to wear pants (or shorts - which should be banned, but that's a separate topic!) and a golf short, but just don't want to be required to wear it?  Or do you have some secret desire to wear a Speedo bathing suit and leg warmers?

[Michael Moore]

Michael,

I've seen many a well-dressed man spit upon the fundamental aspects of the game of golf, often while they thought others weren't looking.

I'd rather play with a slovenly golfer who follows the rules than a well-dress cheating scum bag.

Kyle -

That is precisely why de Tocqueville refers to the "illusory" and "often false" nature of manners. Focus!

There is no connection whatsoever between the clothes you are wearing and the spirit/essence/true meaning of golf.

Golf in America got rolling as a deeply aristocratic pastime.

At courses with a dress code, golfers still derive "noble satisfaction" from dressing up and observing others doing likewise. As usual, de Tocqueville's turn of the phrase is apt, current, and difficult to improve upon.

[Mike Benham]

Kyle -

Why have you ignored Dan King's post?  You are commenting on every other response but ignore his clear concise reply.  Are you channeling Shivas or JakaB and arguing for argument sakes?

And, how would your mother like you to dress?

Mike

[Tim Bert]

Phil,

I can certainly understand your aesthetic desires. However, if I were to be invited to your club to play golf, and showed up in well maintained jeans and a clean non-collared shirt... what perceptions would their be by the members before they even met me, played golf with me, or socialized with me?

I'd prefer that you show up in torn & tattered golf pants and a stained, dirty golf shirt.  

[Kyle Harris]

Honestly.

I am in love with one of the most wonderful and thoughtful people in the world. She loves every bit of my passion for the game and inspires and encourages these dorky tendencies and my love for golf courses in ways I can't even put to paper.

She's an artist, and a damn good one at that. She's also a musician and has the soul of a poet and the heart of a muse. Her beauty is amazingly classic and she carries herself with an elegance typically attributed to royalty (the good kind, not the sleazy inbred kind).

Her work has inspired millions and she takes no credit for it. The simple satisfaction of expression is enough for her.

All she did, when we finally had the opportunity to go out on the golf course, was ask me why? I told her the standard and she put up a little fight and asked that.

Honestly, I couldn't give her a reason, and I certainly couldn't force her to go against something that her fundamental ethics say is wrong.

If the institutions of the game are making people like her stay away and not come near it... something is VERY wrong.

[David Stamm]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

 

Jamie, I haven't. I stopped going years ago.  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle -

Why have you ignored Dan King's post?  You are commenting on every other response but ignore his clear concise reply.  Are you channeling Shivas or JakaB and arguing for argument sakes?

And, how would your mother like you to dress?

Mike

Mike,

Honestly in the shuffle Dan's post got lost on me as I was already automatically scrolling below it to read other posts.

My mother was ecstatic to hear that golf required collared shirts, actually.... ask my high school golf coach.

Dan,

Why do the vast majority of golfers' accept that they do? In my experience, your response is in the significant minority.

The game has built up a sense of tradition which may very well destroy it.

[JSlonis]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

Kyle,

I honestly don't think economic standards equate to someone wearing jeans or someone in more formal attire.  There are enough dressier looking clothes available for the same price as jeans or casual wear, that it isn't that difficult to dress for formal if one chose to.

Then let's bring it to a matter of taste. I think that I can convey respect for the game by wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Why is that wrong?

It's not altogether wrong.  There are a lot of courses that will allow you to convey your respect for the game while wearing jeans.  There are also a lot of places that won't.  Whether it is perceived as stuffy or eliteist is debatable.  It is what it is.  Look at proferssional tennis for example.  Ladies and gents used to wear the "tennis whites" all the time.  Now they wear all sorts of wild looking stuff, except for Wimbledon.  Everyone wears white, or they don't play.  You don't see anyone skipping that event because of a dress code.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

Kyle,

I honestly don't think economic standards equate to someone wearing jeans or someone in more formal attire.  There are enough dressier looking clothes available for the same price as jeans or casual wear, that it isn't that difficult to dress for formal if one chose to.

Then let's bring it to a matter of taste. I think that I can convey respect for the game by wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Why is that wrong?

It's not altogether wrong.  There are a lot of courses that will allow you to convey your respect for the game while wearing jeans.  There are also a lot of places that won't.  Whether it is perceived as stuffy or eliteist is debatable.  It is what it is.  Look at proferssional tennis for example.  Ladies and gents used to wear the "tennis whites" all the time.  Now they wear all sorts of wild looking stuff, except for Wimbledon.  Everyone wears white, or they don't play.  You don't see anyone skipping that event because of a dress code.

If they did... how would it change tennis?

If Tiger skipped Augusta because they kept tweaking it, how would that change perception of golf courses?

If he skipped Augusta because he wanted to wear a t-shirt, how would that change dress codes?

Would it not make him the best golfer in the world?

[JSlonis]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

 

Jamie, I haven't. I stopped going years ago.  

No worries, I'm not a big church go'er either, but from what I have seen lately, the ole' "Sunday best" is no longer a useful phrase.

[JSlonis]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

Kyle,

I honestly don't think economic standards equate to someone wearing jeans or someone in more formal attire.  There are enough dressier looking clothes available for the same price as jeans or casual wear, that it isn't that difficult to dress for formal if one chose to.

Then let's bring it to a matter of taste. I think that I can convey respect for the game by wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Why is that wrong?

It's not altogether wrong.  There are a lot of courses that will allow you to convey your respect for the game while wearing jeans.  There are also a lot of places that won't.  Whether it is perceived as stuffy or eliteist is debatable.  It is what it is.  Look at proferssional tennis for example.  Ladies and gents used to wear the "tennis whites" all the time.  Now they wear all sorts of wild looking stuff, except for Wimbledon.  Everyone wears white, or they don't play.  You don't see anyone skipping that event because of a dress code.

If they did... how would it change tennis?

If Tiger skipped Augusta because they kept tweaking it, how would that change perception of golf courses?

If he skipped Augusta because he wanted to wear a t-shirt, how would that change dress codes?

Would it not make him the best golfer in the world?

Tiger already wears a T-Shirt.

[Kyle Harris]

Jamie,

One of my initial thoughts for a thread title was going to be, "Wear a mock neck shirt and save golf architecture."

In fact, that might be the essay's title.

[JSlonis]

Jamie,

One of my initial thoughts for a thread title was going to be, "Wear a mock neck shirt and save golf architecture."

In fact, that might be the essay's title.

Do you care to enlighten us as to where your thoughts are going on this issue.  There has to be a method to your madness.

[Phil McDade]

Golf in America got rolling as a deeply aristocratic pastime.

As it did in its country of origin -- Scotland. If not aristocratic, certainly a game for the very well-off -- equivalant in some ways today to polo in America.

[Tim Bert]

If the institutions of the game are making people like her stay away and not come near it... something is VERY wrong.

I don't like George Clooney as an actor at all.  In fact, I won't watch a movie he is in.  They could make a movie out of my favorite book, with all my favorite movie stars, and if he were in it, I'd have to give serious thought to skipping it.

The film institution wouldn't be MAKING me stay away.  I'd be CHOOSING to stay away.

The truth comes out -you are blinded by love, which is fine.

I'd expect that if she loves you back she could see and appreciate your passion for the game and overcome a silly thing like dress code without wasting time blaming it on the institution.

[Adam Clayman]

Kyle, The best answer I can come up with is...out of respect for others around you.
That is completly within the spirit of the sport.

 But, in actuality, it is our own Bob Huntley whose arguments have ressonated the truth of the matter. His disdain for the person who has the gawdawfulest looking legs, yet insists on wearing shorts that show too  much of a bad thing.

Trust me, I have gone full circle on this issue. I onced believed as you do in this thread, that it shouldn't matter what I wear, since it does not gaurantee ungentlemanly behavior. But, if you are out in public one should consider looking presentable. If for no other reason than it actually makes you feel better, have more confidence and who knows? maybe Play better.

"What not to wear" on TLC is a great place to learn some fundementals.

I'll share one story about a local pro on the Monterey peninsula. He was scheduled to play in Bing's clambake and showed up for a Wednesday practice round at Pebble. On the tee were Chi Chi and the two gentleman who flew him up from Puerto Rico. The starter went over to Mr. Roduiquez(sp?) and asked if a local pro could join their threesome. He said "No problem" and was introduced. Chi Chi took one look at this guy with his soiled canvas bag and his dirty shoes and said "You a pro, mon? Musta been a tough year". Well this guy proceeds to birdie the first and eagles the second. Whereupon Chi Chi walked up to him and apologized for his earlier comment.

[Kyle Harris]

Honestly.

I am in love with one of the most wonderful and thoughtful people in the world. She loves every bit of my passion for the game and inspires and encourages these dorky tendencies and my love for golf courses in ways I can't even put to paper.

She's an artist, and a damn good one at that. She's also a musician and has the soul of a poet and the heart of a muse. Her beauty is amazingly classic and she carries herself with an elegance typically attributed to royalty (the good kind, not the sleazy inbred kind).

Her work has inspired millions and she takes no credit for it. The simple satisfaction of expression is enough for her.

All she did, when we finally had the opportunity to go out on the golf course, was ask me why? I told her the standard and she put up a little fight and asked that.

Honestly, I couldn't give her a reason, and I certainly couldn't force her to go against something that her fundamental ethics say is wrong.

If the institutions of the game are making people like her stay away and not come near it... something is VERY wrong.

Jamie,

That's it, right there. I began to wonder why there is something of a dearth of true creativity in golf architecture after that incident.

Obviously, golf architecture isn't all art, but it certainly does require an open and creative mind. I think the people that would be inherently skilled at creating masterpiece and intriguing golf courses are also the type of people that would be immediately turned off by some of the pointless dogma that is perpetuated by most of the clubs and organizations that host the game.

The image of golf is one of high barriers of entry and elitist and shallow people to those who don't play the game. While this is not entirely true, it's not entirely accurate.

If my fiance were to accompany me on a golf course on certain days, she would be judged harshly because her attire did not "fit" with the rest of the club. This is not say she is dressed like a slut nor inappropriately, it's just part of who she is. It also speaks nothing of her character or personality.

I would also be judged based on being with her.

I am not shallow like that, and from talking to non-golfers, that aspect of the game is a MAJOR turn off. Face it, the majority of golf facilities set the standard that you can judge the quality of the golfer (and by natural extension, the person) based on what they are wearing. If that were NOT true, then no dress codes would apply as it wouldn't matter. I think that by enforcing and regulating what is ultimately a non-issue in terms of golf's values we are severely undercutting the game's growth.

[David Stamm]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

Kyle,

I honestly don't think economic standards equate to someone wearing jeans or someone in more formal attire.  There are enough dressier looking clothes available for the same price as jeans or casual wear, that it isn't that difficult to dress for formal if one chose to.

Then let's bring it to a matter of taste. I think that I can convey respect for the game by wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

Why is that wrong?

It's not altogether wrong.  There are a lot of courses that will allow you to convey your respect for the game while wearing jeans.  There are also a lot of places that won't.  Whether it is perceived as stuffy or eliteist is debatable.  It is what it is.  Look at proferssional tennis for example.  Ladies and gents used to wear the "tennis whites" all the time.  Now they wear all sorts of wild looking stuff, except for Wimbledon.  Everyone wears white, or they don't play.  You don't see anyone skipping that event because of a dress code.

If they did... how would it change tennis?

If Tiger skipped Augusta because they kept tweaking it, how would that change perception of golf courses?

If he skipped Augusta because he wanted to wear a t-shirt, how would that change dress codes?

Would it not make him the best golfer in the world?

I hope it wouldn't change tennis or golf. Call me a fuddy duddy geek, but I find it refreshing that Wimbledon sticks to it's gun's and doesn't cave in to the latest fashion demands. In this day and age, there is something to be said for that.

[Kyle Harris]

If the institutions of the game are making people like her stay away and not come near it... something is VERY wrong.

I don't like George Clooney as an actor at all.  In fact, I won't watch a movie he is in.  They could make a movie out of my favorite book, with all my favorite movie stars, and if he were in it, I'd have to give serious thought to skipping it.

The film institution wouldn't be MAKING me stay away.  I'd be CHOOSING to stay away.

The truth comes out -you are blinded by love, which is fine.

I'd expect that if she loves you back she could see and appreciate your passion for the game and overcome a silly thing like dress code without wasting time blaming it on the institution.

Tim,

She knows and loves me well enough to see that I am very uncomfortable being forced into wearing what I don't want to wear. She wasn't asking why as a way to stick it to the man, she was asking why to understand what exactly about this game appealed to me.