Not OT

[Kyle Harris]

Is it any small wonder that this forum, without pretense to any sort of conduct outside of accepted courtesies and devoid of all superficial behavior requirements...

This is where I think you're missing the point, Kyle. Yes, you don't know what the rest of us are wearing now. But within the context of a website, we are conducting ourselves in a way that is the on-line equivalent of a dress code -- because that makes this a much more pleasant site to visit than those internet food-fight sites.

At a golf course, a minimum regard for one's appearance is an accepted courtesy, too.

Rick,

It's deeper than that and you know it. This website is devoid of any sort of superficial standards. We do not know anything about the other posters accept that they were accepted by Ran to post on this website. We know nothing else unless they tell us. The ONLY requirement to posting here is acceptance by Ran and a grasp of the English language.

We conduct ourselves in such a manner because we want to advance discussion. It is completely de facto and not de jure. Furthermore, nobody is compelled to post, respond or even read anything on this site. Everything done here is completely voluntary and of free will and mind. We simply agree to discuss one topic, and even then we are permitted to break out, post an OT thread and see whether or not it gets deleted. We are permitted to become testy and even challenge the generally accepted norms.

I believe it is you who are missing the point. The acceptability of dress is not in contention, it's the ability of the members to question and challenge it without retribution or a change in perception of that member's character.

Here we can do that with little fear of retribution or denial of privileges.

The thing is, there are posters on here who would not be able to join ANY private golf club, yet their opinions, thoughts and dedication to the game are probably more well-rounded and higher than the majority of private club golfers.

[wsmorrison]

Your efforts on this thread are, in my mind, a complete waste of time, both yours and mine.  I don't even want to bother explaining it to you as that would be a continued waste of my time.  Frankly, I am surprised you bother to argue this position at all and even more so the manner in which you do.  

[Kyle Harris]

Your efforts on this thread are, in my mind, a complete waste of time, both yours and ours.  I don't even want to bother with explaining it to you as that would be a continued waste of my time.  Frankly, I am surprised you bother to argue this position at all and even more so the manner in which you do.  

Then why respond? And seriously Wayne, who are you to speak for 1500 people and countless other lurkers?

I'll call Tommy or Ran right now and get their opinions.

[wsmorrison]

"Then why respond?"

That's the best question you've posed on this entire thread  

"And seriously Wayne, who are you to speak for 1500 people and countless other lurkers? "

You're right there, Kyle.  I changed my wording.

[Kyle Harris]

"Then why respond?"

That's the best question you've posed on this entire thread  

...and deflect?

[John Kavanaugh]

Kyle,

I think you are doing harm to your career given most of the money is at upscale clubs.  Have you thought about the potential image you are projecting about yourself.  It is not much different than the clothes people choose to wear.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I think you are doing harm to your career given most of the money is at upscale clubs.  Have you thought about the potential image you are projecting about yourself.  It is not much different than the clothes people choose to wear.

What image am I projecting?

[wsmorrison]

"I'll call Tommy or Ran right now and get their opinions."

Come on, Kyle.  Surely this issue doesn't rise to a level of importance that you need to reach out to them in their private time.  Just consider it my opinion and it differs from yours.  

[Kyle Harris]

"I'll call Tommy or Ran right now and get their opinions."

Come on, Kyle.  Surely this issue doesn't rise to a level of importance that you need to reach out to them in their private time.  Just consider it my opinion and it differs from yours.  

I do consider it a difference of opinion, but you definitely overstepped a line by speaking for the rest of the board.

[wsmorrison]

"I do consider it a difference of opinion, but you definitely overstepped a line by speaking for the rest of the board."

I replied that you were right and changed my wording.  If you wish to continue holding it against me, have at it.  I overstepped a line?  Stop acting so childish and get over it.  You've gone from merely absurd to utterly boring.

I'm off this thread.  Post whatever reply you like.  I won't be reading it.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

Because you will look nicer when you follow the "appropriate dress codes"; and I am sick and tired of looking at people who do not meet my opinion of what "looks nice".

Appropriate dress codes have often evolved partly as a result of what makes people look dignified.  In the distant past some of these dress codes could result in outfits that could be very uncomfortable, although very dignified.  So the dress codes evolved to outfits that were more comfortable, but still dignified.  Now they are continuing to evolve to only comfortable, but with out any dignity in the look.

What does this mean, dignified.  The clothes have a cut, and hang on the body in a manner to accentuate the best features, and to cover-up the worst features.  Many of the outfits strictly of comfort result in the wearer looking bad, dumpy, and unpleasant.

In the past the dress codes only considered what was best for society, but ignored the needs of the wearer.  Eventually the dress codes took both into consideration.  The current dress code (of wear what ever one chooses, or NO dress code) is an act of selfishness.  All that matter is how I feel, but it does not matter how the result looks to others.

So now we have to see people wearing ill-fitting sweat suits at the grocery store, baggy over-sized shorts at nice department stores, t-shirts with holes at the library, and wearing hats in classrooms (and sometimes even in church).

How difficult can it be to wear a pair of nice slacks, a proper fitting shirt with a collar, and shoes not falling apart.  It does not require a visit to Brooks Brothers to look nice.  Even Target, Marshalls, or even many used clothing shops have these clothes.

Dress codes that do exist typically evolve through society’s selection of what is good.  A rejection of dress codes has evolved through individuals ignoring any societal obligation, no matter how minimal it impacts those individuals to follow society’s dress code.  It has not been unusual for societal codes to be overly constraining on individuals.  Typically – sometimes slowly – those codes evolve to something improved.  However, there is a difference between an individual attempting to “adjust” a societal code to something that works better for both the individual and society, as opposed to when an individual chooses to just ignore how one’s behavior affects the other members of society.

[Ryan Farrow]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

Because you will look nicer when you follow the "appropriate dress codes"; and I am sick and tired of looking at people who do not meet my opinion of what "looks nice".

Appropriate dress codes have often evolved partly as a result of what makes people look dignified.  In the distant past some of these dress codes could result in outfits that could be very uncomfortable, although very dignified.  So the dress codes evolved to outfits that were more comfortable, but still dignified.  Now they are continuing to evolve to only comfortable, but with out any dignity in the look.

What does this mean, dignified.  The clothes have a cut, and hang on the body in a manner to accentuate the best features, and to cover-up the worst features.  Many of the outfits strictly of comfort result in the wearer looking bad, dumpy, and unpleasant.

In the past the dress codes only considered what was best for society, but ignored the needs of the wearer.  Eventually the dress codes took both into consideration.  The current dress code (of wear what ever one chooses, or NO dress code) is an act of selfishness.  All that matter is how I feel, but it does not matter how the result looks to others.

So now we have to see people wearing ill-fitting sweat suits at the grocery store, baggy over-sized shorts at nice department stores, t-shirts with holes at the library, and wearing hats in classrooms (and sometimes even in church).

How difficult can it be to wear a pair of nice slacks, a proper fitting shirt with a collar, and shoes not falling apart.  It does not require a visit to Brooks Brothers to look nice.  Even Target, Marshalls, or even many used clothing shops have these clothes.

Dress codes that do exist typically evolve through society’s selection of what is good.  A rejection of dress codes has evolved through individuals ignoring any societal obligation, no matter how minimal it impacts those individuals to follow society’s dress code.  It has not been unusual for societal codes to be overly constraining on individuals.  Typically – sometimes slowly – those codes evolve to something improved.  However, there is a difference between an individual attempting to “adjust” a societal code to something that works better for both the individual and society, as opposed to when an individual chooses to just ignore how one’s behavior affects the other members of society.

I am sensing some sarcasm in this post, I just don't understand why it is so long. Usually sarcastic posts are only a line or two, oh well.

[Tim Bert]

I think I've got it all figured out now.  Kyle and Shivas had dinner two weeks ago and made a bet to see who could start a post about something they care little about and then keep the argument going for the most number of posts in an attempt to surpass the arts and crafts thread.

They are both doing quite well.

I was following along in an amused manner until Kyle got called out on Boy Scout uniforms and decided to defend them in the midst of all this dress code hoopla.  That's what alerted me to the reality of the situation.

Smile.  You're on candid camera!  

I should post this on the Ted Robinson thread as well to be fair.  I've just given Kyle one extra notch.

[Kyle Harris]

Okay Tim,

If you're going to post that, I'm going to call you out on it.

Why is the Boy Scout thing even germane to this discussion?

How did it discredit what I had to say?

I should note that Shivas and I had quite the conversation on his camera thread too...  

[John Kavanaugh]

Kyle,

I think you are doing harm to your career given most of the money is at upscale clubs.  Have you thought about the potential image you are projecting about yourself.  It is not much different than the clothes people choose to wear.

What image am I projecting?

You are projecting an image of someone who puts their needs above that of the team.  That I know for sure and could speculate on much more but don't see the need to get hurtfull.  I know that if I was hiring a superintendent I would want someone who understands the value of presentation.  You have given me the impression you don't.

In golf course set up image just might be everything.  It is without question huge when hiring an inexperienced young person.  I usually know when I watch someone park their car if I am going to hire them or not.  Yes, the interview process does start earlier than most people think.

[Tim Bert]

It seems pretty obvious that the Boy Scout outfit is a dress code.  What if all those boys decided they felt more like jeans and a t-shirt or athletic shorts and a football jersey or a bathing suit with no shirt on any given day or whatever the heck you said a few pages back?  Heck, at least on a golf course I can choose between brand, color, material, and style of golf shirt.

I think you cited "camraderie" or some other rationalization like that.  Are young children so mindless that they can't feel like a team (or a pack) if they aren't all dressed the same?

I have no problem with the Boy Scouts having a dress code, but what a double stadard to be completely okay with it in that environment and yet deny its right to exist on a golf course where the decision is made by the owner and operator.  How are we to expect the creative masses to join the Boy Scouts if they are skipping out on the golf experience simply due to constrained clothing choices?      

[Ryan Farrow]

John, have you read BLINK. The interview process doesn't even need to take place. Just break into their place when they aren't home.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, have you read BLINK. The interview process doesn't even need to take place. Just break into their place when they aren't home.

No..I don't read anything.  Is your avitar the Obama logo?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I think you are doing harm to your career given most of the money is at upscale clubs.  Have you thought about the potential image you are projecting about yourself.  It is not much different than the clothes people choose to wear.

What image am I projecting?

You are projecting an image of someone who puts their needs above that of the team.  That I know for sure and could speculate on much more but don't see the need to get hurtfull.  I know that if I was hiring a superintendent I would want someone who understands the value of presentation.  You have given me the impression you don't.

In golf course set up image just might be everything.  It is without question huge when hiring an inexperienced young person.  I usually know when I watch someone park their car if I am going to hire them or not.  Yes, the interview process does start earlier than most people think.

John,

Questioning a convention and asking why can't I, and being a person who puts their needs above that of a team are two very different things.

Would I want to work for someone who can't see the difference? I don't know.

Have I done dumb shit?
Yes, of course.

Would past employers question my ability to be a superintendent?
Yes, I know it for sure as they've told me. I've messed up because of image and getting careless more than I care to think about. People who have posted on this thread KNOW this, and have been affected by it.

I learn, I move on, and I know my deficiencies and strengths. Questioning long held authorities for the sake of evaluating my values, and those of an institution, is not one of them though.

Thanks for answering though, and yes, I agree that a lot of evaluating a person happens by watching what they do when they think nobody is looking. But it works both ways, and dress codes only mask that.

[Tim Bert]

Kyle,

I think you are doing harm to your career given most of the money is at upscale clubs.  Have you thought about the potential image you are projecting about yourself.  It is not much different than the clothes people choose to wear.

What image am I projecting?

You are projecting an image of someone who puts their needs above that of the team.  That I know for sure and could speculate on much more but don't see the need to get hurtfull.  I know that if I was hiring a superintendent I would want someone who understands the value of presentation.  You have given me the impression you don't.

In golf course set up image just might be everything.  It is without question huge when hiring an inexperienced young person.  I usually know when I watch someone park their car if I am going to hire them or not.  Yes, the interview process does start earlier than most people think.

Doesn't Apache Stronghold essentially wear jeans and a t-shirt every day?  Haven't many on this site commented that he's one of the nicest guys they've seen in the desert?  He's a great guy, but he doesn't dress nicely from what I've heard.

Would people respect him more if he wore proper golf attire?

There's your GCA tie-in.

[John Kavanaugh]

Kyle,

I said the image you are projecting not the image you are trying to project.  Until you own your own course I am not sure you can afford to be so truthful in a public forum.  You basically said exactly all the same things on the camera thread.  It is not good.

[Kyle Harris]

It seems pretty obvious that the Boy Scout outfit is a dress code.  What if all those boys decided they felt more like jeans and a t-shirt or athletic shorts and a football jersey or a bathing suit with no shirt on any given day or whatever the heck you said a few pages back?  Heck, at least on a golf course I can choose between brand, color, material, and style of golf shirt.

I think you cited "camraderie" or some other rationalization like that.  Are young children so mindless that they can't feel like a team (or a pack) if they aren't all dressed the same?

I have no problem with the Boy Scouts having a dress code, but what a double stadard to be completely okay with it in that environment and yet deny its right to exist on a golf course where the decision is made by the owner and operator.  How are we to expect the creative masses to join the Boy Scouts if they are skipping out on the golf experience simply due to constrained clothing choices?      

Tim,

You read nothing of what I posted in my lengthy post on page 6 and it's showing.

The Boy Scouts' values and ethics are under constant scrutiny and evaluation. Discourse and conversation are encouraged and welcome. Changes are made and adapted and Scout Troops are free to determine the level of uniforming suitable for them and their program.

The uniform is not a barrier of entry and advancement is not denied, nor is access, based on a lack of uniform. Furthermore, if a troop determines that uniforming is important, they are encouraged to provide the means for those who cannot uniform themselves through subsidization and uniform exchanges - because teenagers grow out of uniforms.

I could go on, but I think you can see how this is nowhere near the stringency of a country club. Don't get me started about the differences between non-profit scout troops, and for profit pro shops.

[Ryan Farrow]

John, have you read BLINK. The interview process doesn't even need to take place. Just break into their place when they aren't home.

No..I don't read anything.  Is your avitar the Obama logo?

What if I said yes?

Reading is overrated anyways as I'm sure you already know.

[Bill Shamleffer]

I was honestly not being sarcastic.

[John Kavanaugh]

I like Obama, he is my Senator from Illinois.  I saw the same logo behind him in a speech and think it is a nice design.  I'm impressed if it is his logo and original design for his campaign.