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Kyle Harris

Re:Not OT
« Reply #175 on: November 08, 2007, 07:21:55 PM »
Kalen,

To me, then, it's not so difficult to understand why green committees seek to make their golf courses TV ready during the peak seasons, among other "me too" attitudes in regard to architecture and conditioning.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #176 on: November 08, 2007, 07:26:29 PM »
This thread reminds me of the endless discussions I had with my mother when I was in my teens...and probably into my early 20s. I wanted to dress the way I wanted to dress, while my mother thought I had an obligation to look presentable to the outside world. I look back on some of the stuff I used to wear, and the length of my hair at that time, and I cringe -- not because I looked  foolish (I often did), but because of the embarrassment I caused my mother.

If there is no one in the world who cares how you look, wear a diaper, or a garbage bag, if it makes you more comfortable and there is no dress code where you're going. But if there is someone who cares, you're really not dressing just for yourself. Your parents, your spouse, your siblings, your closest friends, even your kids care whether your attire is causing negative attention or making other people uncomfortable.

Respect for the game of golf? I'm not sure what that means. But respect for others who play golf? We all know what that means. More importantly, we know what it means to show respect for the people who really do care more about us than what we wear. It's one way we show love -- by deciding, sometimes, not to exercise our freedom.

I wish I'd understood that better when I was younger.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Kyle Harris

Re:Not OT
« Reply #177 on: November 08, 2007, 07:35:10 PM »
Oh, by the way, CB Macdonald conceived the 10th hole at Merion East as an Alps while wearing pajamas with one of the buttons on his backside undone.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #178 on: November 08, 2007, 07:44:26 PM »
Oh, by the way, CB Macdonald conceived the 10th hole at Merion East as an Alps while wearing pajamas with one of the buttons on his backside undone.

But(t), none of us had to look at him while he did it.

Bart

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #179 on: November 08, 2007, 08:27:04 PM »

This is perhaps the scariest thought of all. When I invite someone into my home or to spend my time with, I do not set rules for their conduct. The invitation, in and of itself, should dictate to them that they may behave in whatever manner they feel appropriate. I am the one responsible for extending the invitation and in doing so, saying that I find their behavior both appropriate and in harmony with my values.

To impose rules and regulations upon how people are my guests is both controlling and impolite. What are we really saying by dictating behavior to people we want to spend time with and share our club? If I were to enjoy several rounds of golf with someone I met at a local muni by happenstance who just happens to always wear the same jeans and t-shirt and wish to invite him at my club - why is it that I have to dictate a dress code to him that happens to go against the very nature in which he enjoys the game, and the very nature in which he enjoys the game with me?

I think the idea that a person should "honor" their host by changing or adapting their behavior is absolute crap. The host is essentially saying, "I have, you do not, but you can have if you do this."


Kyle -

I have not met Bob Huntley.  I know that he is a man that gets a great deal of respect from many on this site.  I also know from his posts that he is a man with a very strong opinion when it comes to wearing hats indoors.

Are you telling me that you think he is imposing, controlling, and rude if he expects you to take your hat off in his home, but you are not imposing, controlling, and rude if you know of his strong feelings and choose to ignore them?

If you don't like the rules of the house - pick another house to visit.


Doug Ralston

Re:Not OT
« Reply #180 on: November 08, 2007, 08:30:32 PM »
Oh, by the way, CB Macdonald conceived the 10th hole at Merion East as an Alps while wearing pajamas with one of the buttons on his backside undone.

But(t), none of us had to look at him while he did it.

Bart

So then, do not look when people wear other things which meet your disapproval. Or just get over it and chalk it up to liberty.

The only arguement I have really heard is that the right to limit other people's liberties is equal to the right to have liberty. If you believe that, I hope you are not American. If you are, you missed it!

Doug

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Not OT
« Reply #181 on: November 08, 2007, 10:05:46 PM »
Kyle,

I don't think you can advocate rejection of a club's dress code and expect an invite to that club, especially if your rejection is manifested in not conforming to the dress code.

As to why clubs have dress codes I could spend hours on the subject.

But, the histories don't matter.
What matters is ..... the club's policies/rules.
If you abide by them, you're welcome.
If you don't, you're not welcome.

If you're invited to a black tie affair and you show up in Bermuda shorts and a tee shirt you can't expect to be welcomed and embraced by your hosts.

It's a matter of common sense and common courtesy.

Kyle Harris

Re:Not OT
« Reply #182 on: November 09, 2007, 05:37:04 AM »

This is perhaps the scariest thought of all. When I invite someone into my home or to spend my time with, I do not set rules for their conduct. The invitation, in and of itself, should dictate to them that they may behave in whatever manner they feel appropriate. I am the one responsible for extending the invitation and in doing so, saying that I find their behavior both appropriate and in harmony with my values.

To impose rules and regulations upon how people are my guests is both controlling and impolite. What are we really saying by dictating behavior to people we want to spend time with and share our club? If I were to enjoy several rounds of golf with someone I met at a local muni by happenstance who just happens to always wear the same jeans and t-shirt and wish to invite him at my club - why is it that I have to dictate a dress code to him that happens to go against the very nature in which he enjoys the game, and the very nature in which he enjoys the game with me?

I think the idea that a person should "honor" their host by changing or adapting their behavior is absolute crap. The host is essentially saying, "I have, you do not, but you can have if you do this."


Kyle -

I have not met Bob Huntley.  I know that he is a man that gets a great deal of respect from many on this site.  I also know from his posts that he is a man with a very strong opinion when it comes to wearing hats indoors.

Are you telling me that you think he is imposing, controlling, and rude if he expects you to take your hat off in his home, but you are not imposing, controlling, and rude if you know of his strong feelings and choose to ignore them?

If you don't like the rules of the house - pick another house to visit.



Tim,

If I am not one to take my hat off indoors, then yes, it is.

If I know his strong feelings and choose to ignore them, then yes, I am.

I can assure any of you, that if I were to invite you to some social or golf function I would not be offended if you did not fit any expectation of mine, because well, I have none. The anonymity of the internet precludes me knowing any of you and there is an inherent risk in extending such invitations. However, I understand that I am ultimately responsible for the invitation and therefore ultimately responsible for whomever that person chooses to be.

I just don't think it's right to attempt to change or control that person to fit some standard I have unfairly set.

You all need to read more carefully, especially Pat.

I am saying that the club's policies do matter. I am saying that people should follow the dress codes as established.

All I'm asking, is WHY they exist, and what the possible consequences of such policies could ultimately be.

A lot of shallowness and judgment has been passed on this thread in my direction based on one simple question.

I also think it is a rather ringing indictment that very few have bothered to ask the question themselves and attempt to look at the other point of view, with all the brain power on this site, that's rather disappointing.

Rich Goodale

Re:Not OT
« Reply #183 on: November 09, 2007, 06:05:58 AM »
"All I'm asking, is WHY they exist, and what the possible consequences of such policies could ultimately be."

Kyle

You have been on this site long enough to know that the only answer ever given on this site to the first part of this question (even by intelligent commentators such as Pat Mucci and Bob Huntley is...

"Because."

...and the answer to the second part of this question can be boiled down to..

"Damned if I know, but maybe the sky will fall."

TEPaul

Re:Not OT
« Reply #184 on: November 09, 2007, 07:21:18 AM »
""...on the walk back to our car we met a young gentleman who was dressed in a manner that declares himself a misfit and thug."

Reminds me of another classic line: "You sir....are no gentleman.""


BillB:

Don't you just love the way they talked to each other back in the day?

That reminds me of Benjamin Disraeli.

In Parliament a back bencher on the other side of the aisle got up and said:

"Mr. Disraeli you might likely die on the gallows or of syphyllis."

Disraeli rose in response and said:

"Sir, that depends whether I embrace your politics or your mistress."

TEPaul

Re:Not OT
« Reply #185 on: November 09, 2007, 07:48:13 AM »
"Tom Paul/Mike Benham,
This is not about the government's right to infringe upon the privacy of private clubs or lives. This is about open discourse concerning a long held tradition and scrutinizing the image of the game presented by that tradition. I am not using this platform for political gain nor to advance a political idea. Leave politics out of this, it is not germane."


Kyle:

You're right, this is not about the government's right to infringe upon the privacy of private clubs or lives. When I mentioned the basic constitutional right of "privacy" (Freedom of Association) I intended to say it is not a government right but the flipside of that---eg an individual's right.

And because of that individual right and another or so (Freedom of speech ;) ) an open discourse on this subject or most any other subject is always possible as has been evidenced by the fact this thread is already six pages long.  ;)

I guess anyone would have to say that the traditions of golf aren't much more than the accumulated preferences of people who form clubs and get together to play golf in and around those clubs.

If, in the opinions of some, the image of the game this presents needs to be discussed and scrutinized, then so be it.

If and when that happens I would expect there will always be differing opinions, and that's fine too.

But I suppose in and around some clubs the working modus operandi when it comes to something like a dress code might always be that old adage "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

At least I hope it will be because I believe in that individual right of freedom or association and all that it means, despite the fact that in many ways I still am a broken down old New York liberal.  ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #186 on: November 09, 2007, 08:37:38 AM »
Quote
The anonymity of the internet precludes me knowing any of you and there is an inherent risk in extending such invitations.

This is one reason why dress codes exist, safety. If you acquiesce to the code you are initially seen as less of a threat.

"What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say."-RWEmerson

Quote
...what the possible consequences of such policies could ultimately be.
None. Check the golf landscape, there are many places that will let you wear most anything. If you came to Hotchkiss  wearing cargo shorts and a Bob Marley T-shirt, with your dreadlocks sticking out the back side of a kerchief, I'd let you play, no problem mon.

..'course, something to remember:
"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society"-MTwain

       
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 08:40:36 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #187 on: November 09, 2007, 09:40:01 AM »
Private clubs are all about the Freedom of Association.

Dress codes are all about the Freedom of Non-Association.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #188 on: November 09, 2007, 09:57:37 AM »
Kyle,

Don't fight The Golden Rule...it applies everywhere...always has and always will.


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #189 on: November 09, 2007, 10:08:47 AM »
Kyle,

Don't fight The Golden Rule...it applies everywhere...always has and always will.



How is Kyle fighting the Golden Rule when he questions the need for rules regarding the length of a golfer's socks?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #190 on: November 09, 2007, 10:47:10 AM »
All I'm asking, is WHY they exist, and what the possible consequences of such policies could ultimately be.

I used to wonder about that as well. Then one day, while playing with my brother at the only course in the town where I then lived, a couple of guys in cutoffs and tank tops drove by with a cooler of beer in the back of their cart.

My brother, who had been playing at country club for several years, said, "You know I forgot about guys like that, there aren't any where I play."

It took several weeks for it sink in that I preferred playing places where there weren't any tank tops and cutoffs.

In the intervening years I have played as either a member or season pass holder at course with and without dress codes, and with varying kinds of codes. (Where I am now, denim is permitted in the winter, for instance.)

Over that time, I find that most people DO act better when they are dressed better. And that's why some courses have a dress code.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

John Kavanaugh

Re:Not OT
« Reply #191 on: November 09, 2007, 10:52:56 AM »
It is only a matter of time where much like seat belt laws we will have recreational mandated dress codes to protect us from the sun.  I am sure that Kyle has a dress code at work and still remember the first time I saw greenskeepers dressed nicely in all the same shirt.  I really thought that added a touch of class to the course.  I also just had a long conversation with an employee of mine about our dress codes at work.  It does boil down to safety.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #192 on: November 09, 2007, 11:16:26 AM »

It is nigh on impossible for me to experience the Merions or Pine Valleys of the world in a different context than those imposed upon me by their rules.

That is not to say the rules are bad or that they do not have purpose, but at the same time, they do stifle those who seek to view things a bit differently and harmlessly.


Kyle, exactly how would you like to experience Merion or Pine Valley?

On a fit of whimsy. I'd like to feel that I could pop over there (as a member) and play golf without having to spend time in a locker room getting ready or 45 minutes at home dressing to the nines to fit the part.

I'd like to be able to look like a golfer by playing golf - not dressing in a certain way.

C'mon, now you are just exaggerating the point. ;)

It doesn't take 45 minutes to toss on a pair of pants or shorts and a collared golf shirt.  Do jeans and a t-shirt defy the laws of physics and somehow get on your body quicker? :D  

I haven't seen too many guys dressed to the nines at either course, just pretty normal golfwear.  Heck...The walk from the clubhouse to the first tee at PV is just a sandy path, not a Paris Runway.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #193 on: November 09, 2007, 11:16:40 AM »
I find that most people DO act better when they are dressed better.

I think you're confusing cause and effect.

You don't think that dressing up those clowns in the Beer Cart would change the way they act -- do you?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #194 on: November 09, 2007, 11:17:02 AM »
The only arguement I have really heard is that the right to limit other people's liberties is equal to the right to have liberty. If you believe that, I hope you are not American. If you are, you missed it!

Doug

You might pause to consider the difference between public action and private, and then further reflect on what being American means.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rich Goodale

Re:Not OT
« Reply #195 on: November 09, 2007, 11:19:36 AM »
The "Golden Rule" is highly overrated.  If you are a masochist does it not give you the liberty to harm other people?

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #196 on: November 09, 2007, 11:29:02 AM »
I find that most people DO act better when they are dressed better.

I think you're confusing cause and effect.

You don't think that dressing up those clowns in the Beer Cart would change the way they act -- do you?

Actually, I do.

I believe that the expectations set by a dress code have an effect on people's behavior.

I also think that people's own self-image is changed when they have on different "uniforms."

I used to live in South Dakota, and the percentage of yuppies at the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally is amazing. But when they are in uniform, they take on some of the biker persona. They don't become Hell's Angels, but they sometimes act like one.

Nevertheless, also agree that having a dress code acts somewhat as an exclusionary device.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #197 on: November 09, 2007, 12:54:02 PM »
This thread is a silly exercise. I'm not sure why anyone is continuing to indulge a weltschmerz-stricken 24 year old whose existential musings seem prompted by his fiancee's queries, a cogent response to which he could not muster.

Dress codes are inherently arbitrary. It doesn't matter whether the prescribing institution is a golf club or the Boy Scouts of America. Yet Kyle has rationalized the latter organization, saying that it "promotes camraderie," falsely assuming that the dress codes of a a golf club be equally defensible as promoting the same or equal values.  

Has this thread been reported to the moderator yet? There was the initial promise of some architectural tie-in, but none has been forthcoming, and given the logic employed by this thread's sponsor, I'm not holding my breath.

The existence of dress codes are silly, but that doesn't mean its worthy of discussion/debate.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 05:43:19 PM by SPDB »

Kyle Harris

Re:Not OT
« Reply #198 on: November 09, 2007, 05:16:23 PM »
SPDB,

With apologies, I do not have access to a computer while working so I can't pop in. Furthermore, since I'm being asked to connect the dots for everyone here, tying the culture of a country club into the effect of that culture on architecture is going to take some time. Therefore, the fact that thread has sat here for two days without such a connection is a testament to the patience of the moderators and hopefully, their respect for my opinion. I am gracious for the chance and opportunity.

As I've stated, the idea here is not to challenge the right of a club to set standards of action for their members. The mention of my continued participation in Boy Scouts was an attempt to point out that I accepted the right of the Boy Scouts of America to allow units to mandate uniforms for participation in their activities. I acknowledge this right, understand the purpose, and accept the consequences of such actions. I believe the uniform does help with programming and further the values we set to demonstrate and identify.

I also acknowledge the right of the golf or country club to mandate certain dress codes and codes of conducts for its members on its property. This, too, was never my point of contention. Where my problem lies is in the immediate acceptance of these standards and the seeming lack of understanding of the potential or already occurring circumstances of such a standard.

The point that I think is being missed here is that the country club, our attire and playing golf are 3 mutually exclusive things. I think we are all in agreement that we play and enjoy the game for reasons other than membership at a privileged club or dressing in a certain well-groomed manner. This is the first point that must be acknowledged in order to follow my line of thinking.

Point A: Golf is a game enjoyed by its participants for the mental, physical and emotional challenges presented over the course of a round.  

I've heard mention that Golf has addictive qualities, and this certainly could be true. We find ourselves thinking about the game, the courses and challenges throughout the day. We sit in anticipation of our next round, especially when scheduled in advance. We relish the challenge of different or new courses. Indeed, one of the inherent novelties and attractions of the game is that there is ALWAYS somewhere "new" to play.

It is at this last point where two very important factors enter the equation. First, the motivation of the golfer to play elsewhere. Yes, there are many golfers who may play one course 97% of the time and enjoy the game as much as the next guy. However, rarely do we find a golfer who plays exclusively at one place. The second factor is the need for diversity, in order for the first factor mentioned in this paragraph to derive satisfaction, there must be diversity. Luckily, golf is played on courses of such a scale that simply changing the location provides enough diversity for most.

I do acknowledge that not every golfer thinks this way, but I think it's safe to say that every golfer who posts on this forum does. Why else would there be discussion of different golf courses and their designs. So perhaps I am speaking right now of roughly... 70% of golfers.

Now to the point. At some point, the golfer must make a choice and compromise. I grew up playing a municipal course where the only requirement of dress was soft spikes and a shirt with a collar. Any other attire was deemed appropriate and many of my early rounds were in after-school practice with a golf shirt untucked in the jeans I wore that day. Soon, I began wondering how my skills could be tested anywhere, as unlike basketball 10 feet on the east side is not 10 feet on the west side. Naturally, I sought out courses of similar "pedigree" as the muni I learned the game upon. This expanded my course experience to maybe... 5 or 6 places.

At the age of 15, not much mattered to me. I enjoyed golf. I would do anything to play golf and in order to acquiesce my desire to play more venues, I would have to make my first compromise:

Following a more stringent dress code.

The first thing to go was the denim, and the shirt got tucked in and a belt added. I began caddying, and on Mondays, I had to wear the caddy's uniform of a white shirt and khakis along with the assigned caddy's hat. This was, naturally, to make me stand out in case something happened in which case the privilege could be suspended, this is a side point but it represents the ultimate in my concession to dress codes.  

I am willing to believe that MOST every poster on this board was exposed to golf before graduation from high school, or even college. I do not know this, but I think that people who are exposed to the game at a later age are not as intense about the game or the golf courses as we, the frequent contributor are.

The point is this: Golf at courses with dress codes will attract the type of person who is willing to concede a freedom (outside of monetary freedom) to play the game. This is where the issue lies.   When a person is willing to concede one thing (no matter the perceived importance) that person WILL be tested as to how far the concessions can go.

Supported play, meaning with a caddy or golf cart during certain times makes a golfer either concede an extra fee to play, or limits the golfer to playing at certain times of a day.

Green committees will make decisions to change the playability or conditioning of the golf course because we concede those decisions to them.

Give the devil and inch, and he'll take a mile.

Naturally, at some point the members do say, "Stop!" but by that point, it's usually too late. The culture bred by such codes is that of "obedience or denial." We do not make waves because we fear the consequences of being excluded from that one "new to us" golf course. While I do understand that for many, the dress codes at country clubs do coincide with their everyday attire (in fact, through most of high school and college, this was true of me). However, I believe that one reason dress codes never get challenged is the fear of being branded and criticized as I have been in this thread, and denied access to other golf courses.

This type of culture excludes and even turns off an essential personality type to any group: the person who is willing to challenge an established norm for the sake of reevaluating the values of the group in question. The idea here is not to rid the country of country clubs with dress codes, nor to stomp on the time honored and accepted behaviors that surround the game but to ensure that we are constantly scrutinizing and re-evaluating those values for the sake of advancement and the freshness of ideas.

It is on that last point where the Boy Scout comparison falls through. The values and ethics of the Boy Scouts ARE constantly challenged and always have been. They are seen as dynamic and changing and open discourse is permitted and encouraged. Most country clubs do not fall into this category and those that do are challenged from the outside (Augusta National v. Martha Burk or the PGA of America v. Shoal Creek) and not from internal forces. One thing Hootie Johnson did right in his response to Martha Burk was to word the response in such a way that left the possibility of future female members at Augusta. I believe this is why only a handful of people showed up to protest as Augusta showed that it DOES constantly critique and re-evaluate its values - albeit at a slow pace.

With this being said, it no longer surprises me that golfers are willing to concede to playing dross and banal golf courses and that the idea of mass-produced golf courses from name design firms. It also no longer surprises me that PGA Tour Player signature designs that are so watered down and lacking in character are popular and able to make money. The heaviest and most influential institutions of the game, by their design, support concession and sameness by making golfers choose very early on to concede to a certain set of rules in order to satisfy a fundamental appeal of the game.

Now, this may seem too ideal, and I thought that it was until today when I realized that there exists a club where the only thing required to join is an interest in the game of golf and in golf architecture...

GOLFCLUBATLAS.com

Is it any small wonder that this forum, without pretense to any sort of conduct outside of accepted courtesies and devoid of all superficial behavior requirements like dress codes and other hoops through which to jump, is a haven for free thinking, creative application of golf course designs and deep relationships? We are a very diverse lot, and one of free thinkers and those willing to challenge...

...and it's a good thing.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 05:17:18 PM by Kyle Harris »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Not OT
« Reply #199 on: November 09, 2007, 06:18:48 PM »
Quote
Is it any small wonder that this forum, without pretense to any sort of conduct outside of accepted courtesies and devoid of all superficial behavior requirements...

This is where I think you're missing the point, Kyle. Yes, you don't know what the rest of us are wearing now. But within the context of a website, we are conducting ourselves in a way that is the on-line equivalent of a dress code -- because that makes this a much more pleasant site to visit than those internet food-fight sites.

At a golf course, a minimum regard for one's appearance is an accepted courtesy, too.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice