Not OT

[Matthew Hunt]

I know he is a misfit because he is attending the school for misfits that is structured for students who no longer can attend regular high school.  The facility is next to where we eat lunch.  I know he was a thug because he intimidated my wife with his "I will not give up my space in the middle of the sidewalk attitude".  I had to move her to my side against the building as he passed and his clothes are just a part of the entire show.

Ahh, me comprehende

[tlavin]

I know he is a misfit because he is attending the school for misfits that is structured for students who no longer can attend regular high school.  The facility is next to where we eat lunch.  I know he was a thug because he intimidated my wife with his "I will not give up my space in the middle of the sidewalk attitude".  I had to move her to my side against the building as he passed and his clothes are just a part of the entire show.

Clearly, he was either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated.

[Matthew Hunt]

I know he is a misfit because he is attending the school for misfits that is structured for students who no longer can attend regular high school.  The facility is next to where we eat lunch.  I know he was a thug because he intimidated my wife with his "I will not give up my space in the middle of the sidewalk attitude".  I had to move her to my side against the building as he passed and his clothes are just a part of the entire show.

Clearly, he was either brazenly provocative or astonishingly uneducated.

Or druged.

[Bill Brightly]

"...on the walk back to our car we met a young gentleman who was dressed in a manner that declares himself a misfit and thug."

Reminds me of another classic line: "You sir....are no gentleman."

I knew John reminded me of someone, NOW I can put a face to the name!

[Doug Ralston]

So John;

You are saying your wife tried her 'move aside, lowlife scum' attitude, and he stood his ground?

Hmm, I guess I had to be there .............  

Doug

[John, calm down, I'm teasing you  ]

[John Kavanaugh]

So John;

You are saying your wife tried her 'move aside, lowlife scum' attitude, and he stood his ground?

Hmm, I guess I had to be there .............  

Doug

[John, calm down, I'm teasing you  ]

I understand that the majority of people on this site believe that on a public sidewalk you have the right to walk wherever you choose.  I'm sorry but I believe that you always walk right hand to the outside.  This young gentleman had a moral obligation to scooch over so we could pass without breaking stride.  He balked and I called him on his bluff, stopped, manuvered my wife away from the danger and prepared the two of us for further evasive action.  My initial responsibility is to put me between my wife and the trouble.  This was just as we had entered the sidewalk so I was already in the early process of getting her off the roadside area so he may have not noticed my actions.

[Dan Kelly]

My Dad taught me to walk on the street side of a woman.

Nowadays, I suppose he'd have to teach me to walk on the thug/misfit side!

[John Kavanaugh]

My Dad taught me to walk on the street side of a woman.

Nowadays, I suppose he'd have to teach me to walk on the thug/misfit side!

I could not see the guys hands.  Sometimes when it comes to personal protection you have to make quick and sometimes rash moves.  One of my personal favorites is the fake phone call so I can stop and see who is following me.

[Sean_A]

From a personal perspective, I honestly don't care what anybody wears - not enough to tell them to change their clothes - which is the bottom line.  I try to evaluate people based on their actions, not their clothes.  I will do it at one of the clubs that I am a member (if my guest happens to do something "inappropriate", but I would not approach anybody else on the matter because I don't care) only because I have agreed to abide by the all the rules of the clubs.  

Sure, I may lean toward not hiring someone because of outrageous clothes if I thought they could potentially harm business.  On the other hand, I wouldn't hesitate to hire someone with outrageous clothes if I thought it would help business.  

Clothes are a statement of sorts, no different from verbal statements.  I wouldn't judge a guy based on one comment - so why do it over clothes?

Like bunkers, too much is made of clothes in the world of golf.

Ciao

[George Pazin]

Why are there dress codes?

Because people are different - different values, different tastes, different standards, etc. One person's tasteful is another's opposite.

As Dan King said, if you don't like it, there's plenty of other places to play.

I'm always wary of something done to "grow the game of golf". I don't much care if some people choose to value different things than me, whether it's dress codes or other criteria for association. I think continually changing things to get more people into the game is mostly just pandering.

In addition to all that, I pretty much agree with what Sean just said.

 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kyle, I did not read all of the responses to this question.  But here is my two cents.
I grew up in NYC when you wore a jacket and tie to Yankee stadium.  Only recently have I gone sans sport jacket when I travel by plane.  Obviously you can wear what you want in public places.  But like in so many areas of society today there seems to be little concern about one's appearance.  I can't believe how many hats I ask people to remove when they come into the church building.  Wear what you like but don't make me look at you if I am in your foursome.  It is rude to others to be slovenly dressed in public places.  We have taken freedom to mean I can do what I want.  That is the lowest form of freedom  There is also the freedom to take others into consideration.  Dress is an extension of what goes on inside.  I suspect you will think this is bullshit.  But you asked.

Tommy,

I understand where I think you are coming from on this, but I'm not sure why we have the "norms" we have now.  If Jesus came walking into your church tommorow in his conditions and clothings of his time what would you think?  He likely would not have bathed in several days, hair long and un-shampood/conditioned.  His robe would likely be stained and not clean by our standards.  His feet would be dusty and dirty and only wearing something equivilant to flip-flops. If someone like this entered your church today, you would likely think him a homeless-person.

On a side note, what Jesus taught more than anything was that it was your internal state of mind/intentions that mattered much more so than the outwardly/external things.  
Additionally who did Jesus hang out with?  The well dressed, proper behaving upper class of Jerusalem? The Bible I read says it was the downtrodden/poor/lesser peoples without the means for the finer things in life.  Yet by your comments its seems like these people would be the least welcomed in your abode.

At what point did wearing all of these modern clothes become the expected norm for proper worship of God?

Kalen, I can't disagree with what you say.  When i was an inner city pastor I had people come to my office and worship dressed in all kinds of clothing.  Obviously the content of one's heart is more important than the external. Societal norms are just that norms that change with time.  The kids that come to church dress all kinds of ways and it is fine.  The adults that come for the most part are white collar workers and generally dress as they would at work.  For them it is a matter of showing respect and the importance of exhibiting on the outside what is going on inside.

To be honest if Jesus were to show up in Annapolis in 2007 I doubt that he would be dressed as a first century Jew.  But who knows.

I guess where I am coming from is that periodically I will sit on a plane next to someone dressed in tee shirt and ragged jeans with a hat on.  I grew up in New York in the fifties and early 60's when it was a relatively formal city.  Old habits die hard.  I was taught that you dress well out of respect for those that have to look at you.

[Ken Moum]

So..

Where do these pants fit in?

http://www.loudmouthgolf.com/

[Tommy Williamsen]

About fifteen years ago my son and I played in the Maryland Father/Son Tournament.  Erik was about 16 with long red hair that went everywhere.  After we had played I wanted to introduce him to the pro.  As we entered the shop I asked Erik to tuck in his shirt and see what he could do with his hair.  He tucked his shirt in but informed me that his hair "wanted to be free."  What do you say to that.  He is a lawyer who litigates and his hair is still free, but he dresses well.

[George Pazin]

To be honest if Jesus were to show up in Annapolis in 2007 I doubt that he would be dressed as a first century Jew.  But who knows.

Funniest thing I've read on here in awhile.

[Cliff Hamm]

From a top 100, classic club:
     

DRESS CODE FOR MONDAY OUTINGS

Men: Shorts are NOT permitted at any time. Slacks and collared shirts are the standard required dress on Club grounds. Jeans or denim of any type, cargo pants and flip flops or sandals are not permitted. Turtlenecks and mock turtleneck shirts tailored for golf are acceptable shirts. Golf shirts must be tucked-in. Wearing headgear (hats, caps, of any kind) is not permitted in any area of the Clubhouse.

DRESS CODE FOR MEMBERS AND THEIR GUESTS

 The Club staff has been directed by the Board of Governors to advise Members if their dress or that of their guests is not considered in compliance with the following dress code, and to deny access or service to them if the exception to appropriate dress is not immediately remedied.

 The dress code applies to all areas of the Club grounds, including the Clubhouse, the golf courses, the practice areas and the parking lots.

 Members and guests must only use the appropriate locker room to change shoes and other attire. Metal or ceramic spiked shoes may not be worn on Club grounds.

 Men: Slacks and collared shirts are the standard required dress on Club grounds, with exceptions noted below. Jeans or denim of any type, cargo pants and flip flops or sandals are not permitted. Turtlenecks and mock turtleneck shirts tailored for golf are acceptable shirts. Golf shirts must be tucked-in. Wearing headgear (hats, caps, of any kind) is not permitted in any area of the Clubhouse.

Jackets and ties are to be worn at all times in the Dining Room, except for breakfast and Sunday evenings when jackets only are acceptable. Slacks and collared shirts may be worn in all areas of the Clubhouse other than the Dining Room prior to 6:00 PM. After 6:00 PM, men eighteen years of age and older are to wear jackets throughout the main and upper levels of the Clubhouse.

 Men’s Shorts Policy: Men may wear appropriate shorts for golf at any time of the year. Appropriate shorts will include only substantially knee-length Bermuda shorts tailored for golf. No other types of shorts, including cargo, camping, tennis, athletic, cutoffs of any kind or denim may be worn. Only short golf socks (no higher than ankle length, such as peds or ankle cuff socks) may be worn with the shorts. No other types of socks, including knee-length, sweat socks or other athletic socks may be worn.

 Appropriate shorts may be worn throughout the lower level of the Clubhouse, and may be worn on the Terrace if there is a breakfast or lunch related to a golf function. Shorts are never permitted in other areas of the Clubhouse.

 Ladies: Slacks or substantially knee-length skirts, culottes or Bermuda shorts, and shirts with sleeves and/or a collar, are the standard required dress on Club grounds, with exceptions noted below. Jeans or denim of any type, tank tops and flip flops are not permitted.

 The above dress is permitted throughout the Clubhouse prior to 6:00 PM, other than in the Dining Room. In the Dining Room (other than on Ladies Guest Day), and in other areas of the Clubhouse after 6:00 PM, comparable attire to that required for men is to be worn.


I think the real issue is when a dress code goes too far.  It is drawing that line that is the problem or perhaps just stick to the dress of the '20s or so.  Without hesitation when I am told the length of my socks the club has gone too far.  Frankly, it is only the last 8 years or so that I began to wear shorter socks, as athletic socks were 'more traditional'.

 

 

 

   
      

[Dan Kelly]

Would Payne Stewart have been welcome there?

[Kyle Harris]

I will be typing out my reply shortly. If I don't respond to any posts after this one - that's why.

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle, I did not read all of the responses to this question.  But here is my two cents.
I grew up in NYC when you wore a jacket and tie to Yankee stadium.  Only recently have I gone sans sport jacket when I travel by plane.  Obviously you can wear what you want in public places.  But like in so many areas of society today there seems to be little concern about one's appearance.  I can't believe how many hats I ask people to remove when they come into the church building.  Wear what you like but don't make me look at you if I am in your foursome.  It is rude to others to be slovenly dressed in public places.  We have taken freedom to mean I can do what I want.  That is the lowest form of freedom  There is also the freedom to take others into consideration.  Dress is an extension of what goes on inside.  I suspect you will think this is bullshit.  But you asked.

Tommy,

I understand where I think you are coming from on this, but I'm not sure why we have the "norms" we have now.  If Jesus came walking into your church tommorow in his conditions and clothings of his time what would you think?  He likely would not have bathed in several days, hair long and un-shampood/conditioned.  His robe would likely be stained and not clean by our standards.  His feet would be dusty and dirty and only wearing something equivilant to flip-flops. If someone like this entered your church today, you would likely think him a homeless-person.

On a side note, what Jesus taught more than anything was that it was your internal state of mind/intentions that mattered much more so than the outwardly/external things.  
Additionally who did Jesus hang out with?  The well dressed, proper behaving upper class of Jerusalem? The Bible I read says it was the downtrodden/poor/lesser peoples without the means for the finer things in life.  Yet by your comments its seems like these people would be the least welcomed in your abode.

At what point did wearing all of these modern clothes become the expected norm for proper worship of God?

Kalen, I can't disagree with what you say.  When i was an inner city pastor I had people come to my office and worship dressed in all kinds of clothing.  Obviously the content of one's heart is more important than the external. Societal norms are just that norms that change with time.  The kids that come to church dress all kinds of ways and it is fine.  The adults that come for the most part are white collar workers and generally dress as they would at work.  For them it is a matter of showing respect and the importance of exhibiting on the outside what is going on inside.

To be honest if Jesus were to show up in Annapolis in 2007 I doubt that he would be dressed as a first century Jew.  But who knows.

I guess where I am coming from is that periodically I will sit on a plane next to someone dressed in tee shirt and ragged jeans with a hat on.  I grew up in New York in the fifties and early 60's when it was a relatively formal city.  Old habits die hard.  I was taught that you dress well out of respect for those that have to look at you.

Tommy,

I appreciate your comments and involvement in the man upstairs' work.  It just seems more attention is given to the outward than the inwardly things....of course its understood, those are almost always the easier things to observe and make an opinion on.

Social norms is an interesting concept to look at especially as it relates to what people wear in public.  Clothing norms have obviously changed a lot over the years as we don't wear 1st Century robes anymore.    But if jeans and T-shirts become the norm, then I would think this would be acceptable because society has spoken.  I would also submit that every generation goes thru this with the next one and after a few cycles of this it would become very arbitrary as to which one is "proper" and shows "respect".  I don't see anyone playing golf in a suit and tie as was the acceptable norm decades ago.

I have no problem with people who choose to wear nice clothes and dress old school...even Mayday Malones polyesters... .  But I don't feel this should be expected of others.

[John Mayhugh]

"...on the walk back to our car we met a young gentleman who was dressed in a manner that declares himself a misfit and thug."

Reminds me of another classic line: "You sir....are no gentleman."

I knew John reminded me of someone, NOW I can put a face to the name!

I seem to remember John K stating that he didn't find the movie funny. I happen to think that the good judge is one of the funniest characters ever.  Every time I read one of the negative comments on photo taking, I think of him.

[John Kavanaugh]

I liked Gone with the Wind...Don't tell me this is another Caddyshack reference.  It is not that I didn't think parts of the movie were funny, it is the fact that I have never sat through the entire movie.  I can't even tell you how it ends.

Favorite Movie Quote #9
Scarlett (Vivien Leigh): Sir, you are no gentleman.Rhett (Clark Gable): And you Miss, are no lady. Don't think that I hold that against you. Ladies have never held any charm for me.
'Gone With The Wind'

[Kyle Harris]

This will be a multi-part response. First I'd like to address some of the individual comments made and then move on to a more broad response.

Wayne,

Bet you guessed I'd start with you. As a true Philadelphian responding to another Philadelphian, Wayne brought up the point that he felt would most expose my hypocrisy and hit me in a personal soft spot. I love the guy.

First, I never WAS an Eagle Scout. I AM one. No past tense when it comes to Scouting's highest achievement.

Second, the uniform in Scouting has been challenged and debated countless times, and each time it is determined that the uniform is essential to furthering the aims of Scouting by promoting teamwork and comaraderie. At no point did I say that there was not a time or place for a uniform or dress code.

Your comparison is flawed. The uniform is one of the central tenets to Scouting. Dress codes are not central tenets to playing golf.

Cory,

You and I have played together many times, and on 5 occasions I have been a guest at your place of employment at the time, or at sometime in the past. In each of those occasions I have abided by the dress code, not for your sake, but for the sake of the club at which you were employed.

If I were to show up at your apartment in a t-shirt and jeans, as I have in the past, neither you or Kate would be offended, unless you're hiding something from me.   My point there is, that my dress is not in anyway showing respect or disrespect to you. It is, however, showing respect or deferment to the rules of the club. Perhaps, it could be argued that I show respect to you by presenting myself in a manner which will not have you branded as the person who let in "that guy." However, what mandates me being labeled as "that guy" is not you, but the club - so I see a difference.

Tom Paul/Mike Benham,

This is not about the government's right to infringe upon the privacy of private clubs or lives. This is about open discourse concerning a long held tradition and scrutinizing the image of the game presented by that tradition. I am not using this platform for political gain nor to advance a political idea. Leave politics out of this, it is not germane.

Paul Turner,

This morning I woke up at 5AM, ate breakfast, went to work and proceeded to assist in verticutting, topdressing and syringing greens. I also leveled several irrigation heads and drains. I am speaking to what I know and love.

Jim Kennedy,

I find this idea disturbing to say the least. Golf is a game played by an individual. How that person plays the game and the skills he acquires and using in doing so are both individual and unique. Golf is VERY much about the individual.

Kalen Braley,

The idea that those who enter the market to make money dictate what the market wants is frightening to me, and the idea that people will allow such to dictate that to them is even worse, in my mind. This is no different than a mandatory cart policy, especially when the reasoning is that a course is difficult to walk. Why can't I make that determination? Why can't I make the determination as to what is appropriate attire to enjoy my day at their club while they take my money? It is because we accept this as normal that we are subject to it.

Jason Connor,

This is perhaps the scariest thought of all. When I invite someone into my home or to spend my time with, I do not set rules for their conduct. The invitation, in and of itself, should dictate to them that they may behave in whatever manner they feel appropriate. I am the one responsible for extending the invitation and in doing so, saying that I find their behavior both appropriate and in harmony with my values.

To impose rules and regulations upon how people are my guests is both controlling and impolite. What are we really saying by dictating behavior to people we want to spend time with and share our club? If I were to enjoy several rounds of golf with someone I met at a local muni by happenstance who just happens to always wear the same jeans and t-shirt and wish to invite him at my club - why is it that I have to dictate a dress code to him that happens to go against the very nature in which he enjoys the game, and the very nature in which he enjoys the game with me?

I think the idea that a person should "honor" their host by changing or adapting their behavior is absolute crap. The host is essentially saying, "I have, you do not, but you can have if you do this."

Next up, a general response.

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle,

I understand how you would like to see things happen, if you were running the show, but often things just don't work out that way.  I refer you to Captain Jack Sparrow for a "pearl" of wisdom:

"The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do. For instance, you can accept that your father was a pirate and a good man or you can't. But pirate is in your blood, boy, so you'll have to square with that some day. And me, for example, I can let you drown, but I can't bring this ship into Tortuga all by me onesies, savvy? So, can you sail under the command of a pirate, or can you not?

You have to decide if you can or cannot abide by the dress codes at certain golf courese.  Its no more complex than that.

[Doug Ralston]

Kyle, I did not read all of the responses to this question.  But here is my two cents.
I grew up in NYC when you wore a jacket and tie to Yankee stadium.  Only recently have I gone sans sport jacket when I travel by plane.  Obviously you can wear what you want in public places.  But like in so many areas of society today there seems to be little concern about one's appearance.  I can't believe how many hats I ask people to remove when they come into the church building.  Wear what you like but don't make me look at you if I am in your foursome.  It is rude to others to be slovenly dressed in public places.  We have taken freedom to mean I can do what I want.  That is the lowest form of freedom  There is also the freedom to take others into consideration.  Dress is an extension of what goes on inside.  I suspect you will think this is bullshit.  But you asked.

Tommy,

I understand where I think you are coming from on this, but I'm not sure why we have the "norms" we have now.  If Jesus came walking into your church tommorow in his conditions and clothings of his time what would you think?  He likely would not have bathed in several days, hair long and un-shampood/conditioned.  His robe would likely be stained and not clean by our standards.  His feet would be dusty and dirty and only wearing something equivilant to flip-flops. If someone like this entered your church today, you would likely think him a homeless-person.

On a side note, what Jesus taught more than anything was that it was your internal state of mind/intentions that mattered much more so than the outwardly/external things.  
Additionally who did Jesus hang out with?  The well dressed, proper behaving upper class of Jerusalem? The Bible I read says it was the downtrodden/poor/lesser peoples without the means for the finer things in life.  Yet by your comments its seems like these people would be the least welcomed in your abode.

At what point did wearing all of these modern clothes become the expected norm for proper worship of God?

Kalen, I can't disagree with what you say.  When i was an inner city pastor I had people come to my office and worship dressed in all kinds of clothing.  Obviously the content of one's heart is more important than the external. Societal norms are just that norms that change with time.  The kids that come to church dress all kinds of ways and it is fine.  The adults that come for the most part are white collar workers and generally dress as they would at work.  For them it is a matter of showing respect and the importance of exhibiting on the outside what is going on inside.

To be honest if Jesus were to show up in Annapolis in 2007 I doubt that he would be dressed as a first century Jew.  But who knows.

I guess where I am coming from is that periodically I will sit on a plane next to someone dressed in tee shirt and ragged jeans with a hat on.  I grew up in New York in the fifties and early 60's when it was a relatively formal city.  Old habits die hard.  I was taught that you dress well out of respect for those that have to look at you.

Tommy,

I appreciate your comments and involvement in the man upstairs' work.  It just seems more attention is given to the outward than the inwardly things....of course its understood, those are almost always the easier things to observe and make an opinion on.

Social norms is an interesting concept to look at especially as it relates to what people wear in public.  Clothing norms have obviously changed a lot over the years as we don't wear 1st Century robes anymore.    But if jeans and T-shirts become the norm, then I would think this would be acceptable because society has spoken.  I would also submit that every generation goes thru this with the next one and after a few cycles of this it would become very arbitrary as to which one is "proper" and shows "respect".  I don't see anyone playing golf in a suit and tie as was the acceptable norm decades ago.

I have no problem with people who choose to wear nice clothes and dress old school...even Mayday Malones polyesters... .  But I don't feel this should be expected of others.

Kalen;

I have honestly hoped we were growing as a specie, and liberty was to be our emphasis. Determining 'appropriateness' of any action which does not damage another should surely be left to the individual considering that action.

I still have to ask all: Why care? What is the 'need' inside all of you/us to make the World in our image, to judge the worthiness of others by asking only if we would? Can we not grow into a culture of cooperative individuals rather than cogs in each others' wheels?

I dunno. I do know that this seemingly trivial question has some very important implications for our acceptance of human liberty.

'Social norms' are simply a statistic, and surely should never be used as compulsion.

I love this stuff.

Doug

[George Pazin]

Doug -

The flip side is that the insistence of no dress code is as controlling and compulsory as having a dress code.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

Because those are the rules established by the members of the host club.

If you don't like the rules, don't visit the club.