Not OT

[Gary Slatter]

Every time I see a Perry Golf bus show up in Scotland, I can't help but hum Sondheim's great song, "Send in the Clones."  I also feel the same way when visiting the posher of the Scottish clubs and feel a bit out of place if I am not wearing tweed and carrying a walking stick.

A club is a club is a club, and it hasn't changed much since Gertrude Stein first made this observation.  Just as she and Alice Toklas dressed for androgyny, most club members dress so that they will look and feel like all the other members.  That, in many ways, is what "clubs" are for--to show to the world and yourself that you belong; to something.

My take on this is the same as Dan King's--if you want to play at a club where there is a dress code, conform.  If not conforming is more important to you than not playing, don't play there.

One of the reasons I like my favourite club (mfc) is that it doesn't really care what you wear as long as you follow the "Etiquette" section of the Rules of Golf.  As far as I can see, there is nothing in that section referring to how you should or shouldn't dress.  At mfc I've worn jeans and shorts and no socks and no shoes and tee shirts and torns sweaters and fancy dress and even been cuttered and bucked (not all in the same round, I must say).  The only time I saw anybody from mfc reprimanded for clothing offenses was when they played buck naked at 4am and were caught by the butcher's wife as she walked her dog across the first fairway.

I love seeing the Perry buses pull up, and agree with everything else you said, the golf dress code lets you feel like one of the club, comfortable.

[JSlonis]

What I don't get is the, "I feel more comfortable in jeans thing."

Am I the only the person who doesn't think jeans are all that comfortable?  A decent pair of khaki's are much more comfortable to me.

I'll leave the tatoo subject alone.  I can't even begin to understand that phenomenon.

[Kirk Gill]

My basic feeling on this issue mirrors what many have said - that to respect the game and the venues where it is played, it is only polite to follow both the policy of the course you are playing and the wishes of your fellow players.

What has always thrown me, though, is the bias against the one particularly evil fabric - denim. I can't decide if it is a bias against the working class (as represented by this one particular fabric which is apparently only to be worn at work), or.....who knows. I'm not surprised or bothered by a private club banning denim, per se, but it is also banned on many public courses that allow pretty much anything and everything else. I don't particularly like denim for golf, mainly because it's a heavy fabric to walk and play in, but it just seems unfair to single it out.

Speaking for myself, there are some other fabrics that should be banned on golf courses. Chenille, for one. And seersucker. Man, I hate that (although apparently many older Floridians disagree with me).  

[John Kavanaugh]

People like jeans because they work well without being washed.  Sometimes you can wear a pair of jeans three or four days in a row without anyone noticing.

[Dan Kelly]

They're Everyman pants.

How did Everyman get on the grounds (other than to work, of course)?

[CHrisB]

C'mon Jamie,
I know you've got that Tavistock logo tattooed on you somewhere...

I'm with you on the jeans, especially the ones women want you to wear down here in Texas, which are tight enough to cut off circulation and leave little to the imagination...

[JSlonis]

C'mon Jamie,
I know you've got that Tavistock logo tattooed on you somewhere...

I'm with you on the jeans, especially the ones women want you to wear down here in Texas, which are tight enough to cut off circulation and leave little to the imagination...

Jeans, especially the tight variety look far better on women than they do on men. Those Texas gals should keep that style for themselves.

I'm not a big fan of logos all over my shirts, I definitely don't want one as a permanent part of my anatomy.

[Marty Bonnar]

u·ni·form [yoo-nuh-fawrm] – adjective
1. identical or consistent, as from example to example, place to place, or moment to moment: uniform spelling; a uniform building code.  
2. without variations in detail: uniform output; a uniform surface.  
3. constant; unvarying; undeviating: uniform kindness; uniform velocity.  
4. constituting part of a uniform: to be issued uniform shoes.  
5. Mathematics. occurring in a manner independent of some variable, parameter, function, etc.: a uniform bound.  
–noun 6. an identifying outfit or style of dress worn by the members of a given profession, organization, or rank.  
7. a word used in communications to represent the letter U.  
–verb (used with object) 8. to make uniform or standard.  
9. to clothe in or furnish with a uniform.

the human condition, I'm afraid. Probably built into the Jeans[sic].

FBD.

[Brian Brown]

  Dressing as a golfer certainly does not make one act as a golfer.   My local muni is a NYC owned course in Brooklyn.  I have seen people of all types and of all wealth levels play on this course.  Khakis and a collared shirt are worn by some of the most inconsiderate people and jeans and t-shirts by some that would epitomize the game.
  I agree however that I feel most comfortable in Khakis and an untucked collared shirt.  Tattoos on a golf course don't bother me, people getting drunk or smoking marijuana however drives me crazy.

[Jason Connor]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

I'd say that today when you play golf you are someone's guest.

And as a guest we should abide by our hosts' rules.

It may be a private club, it may be a for-profit public course.  You're still someone's guest (even if you're paying).

And while I agree that one's dress is uncorrelated to his likelihood of being a gentleman or abiding by the rules of golf, I would say that I enjoy a round more when I see other golfers dressing in a manner that demonstrates respect for those around them.

I think my one experience at Oakmont would have meant a little less if the guy in the next fairway had been wearing cutoff jeans and no shirt.

As Crash Davis once said to Nuke Laloosh, "You don't respect yourself and that's your problem.  But you don't respect the game -- and that's my problem."

[Lloyd_Cole]

Kyle

Here's an argument for you that might help.

Hobbes argued that we group together in townships and estalblish rules of accepatable, or required behaviour, not out of love or respect for our fellow man, but out of self interest - we're safer in numbers.

From your point of view, as a student of GCA, you can see all of the local munis you want dressed however you like. If however you wish to see the classics, you'll need to figure out a strategy for yourself.

Or, you could join a club with a dress code, and once you were an established member, you could lobby your fellow memebers to change the rule. You might even succeed, hell, you could be in Golf Magazine 2027 as one of those innovators.

If it really bothers you, and it seems to, figure out your priorities and  then a strategy, and live your life accordingly. Do you want to see the classics? Do you want change?

[Matthew Hunt]

Kyle,

Do you think creativity in GCA is lacking because fewer creative minds enter the field because these creative minds stay away from golf because it has a dress code?

If so, read more closely some of what the architects on here say...they are trying to create a product they can sell...it just looks like art to some people.

Does the Average dess creativly?

[Tim Pitner]

I've endeavored to relax the dress code at just about every place I've worked but I actually tend to dress up when playing golf.  I'll never understand, however, why some people feel compelled to break out their silks on a golf course.  I prefer my golf a little on the rugged side and I don't like it when golfers dress like they're going to a garden party.  

I'm not on Kyle's bandwagon, but I'm here to stick up for the alleged fashion fax paux of untucked shirts.  Some shirts are made to be untucked.  I'm not talking about some ridiculously flowing Tommy Bahama number (see above about garden parties) or an oversized polo shirt that reaches to one's knees.  There are shirts, usually with no vents, that are meant to be worn untucked and, IMO, are fine for the golf course.  Sorry--just a pet peeve of mine.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Are you talking about the collared shirt with elastic on the bottom that are made for obese seventy year old men.  My dad loves those things and has gone so far to recommend them to me...sorry, but I do still steal his socks.  I did take a little crap this year for sporting the black Dr Shoals diabetic sock that can be purchased at WalMart in a quarter cut style.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Kyle, I did not read all of the responses to this question.  But here is my two cents.
I grew up in NYC when you wore a jacket and tie to Yankee stadium.  Only recently have I gone sans sport jacket when I travel by plane.  Obviously you can wear what you want in public places.  But like in so many areas of society today there seems to be little concern about one's appearance.  I can't believe how many hats I ask people to remove when they come into the church building.  Wear what you like but don't make me look at you if I am in your foursome.  It is rude to others to be slovenly dressed in public places.  We have taken freedom to mean I can do what I want.  That is the lowest form of freedom  There is also the freedom to take others into consideration.  Dress is an extension of what goes on inside.  I suspect you will think this is bullshit.  But you asked.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

WWHW?  

What would Hogan Do?  

[Doug Ralston]

Why there is a 'dress code' anywhere is still a mystery to me. Whatever happened to 'mind own business'? Perhaps more importantly, what ever happened to " ....... the content of their character'?

Humans come in two distinct types [viva le difference and all that]. No surprises except to those who have been taught shame from birth [nearly all of us, then].

Clothing serves some functional purposes, no doubt about it. As for the rest, it is just psycho-social pressures that determine.

Why care?

As for golf, it is a microcosm of human society. The importance of golf course dress codes is silly out of the greater context.

Why care?

Is self-importance [therefore, force others into your mode] the basis of this stylized activity and it's 'need' to define worthiness.

"the content of their character'

No, the question of golf dress codes is not very important in itself; but it does represent well a human 'need' for self-importance that stretches in to virtually all endeavor.

Doug [the psychologist has spoken and you properly should genuflect]  

PS: This question is bound to come up occasionally. Can't resist putting it in context.

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle, I did not read all of the responses to this question.  But here is my two cents.
I grew up in NYC when you wore a jacket and tie to Yankee stadium.  Only recently have I gone sans sport jacket when I travel by plane.  Obviously you can wear what you want in public places.  But like in so many areas of society today there seems to be little concern about one's appearance.  I can't believe how many hats I ask people to remove when they come into the church building.  Wear what you like but don't make me look at you if I am in your foursome.  It is rude to others to be slovenly dressed in public places.  We have taken freedom to mean I can do what I want.  That is the lowest form of freedom  There is also the freedom to take others into consideration.  Dress is an extension of what goes on inside.  I suspect you will think this is bullshit.  But you asked.

Tommy,

I understand where I think you are coming from on this, but I'm not sure why we have the "norms" we have now.  If Jesus came walking into your church tommorow in his conditions and clothings of his time what would you think?  He likely would not have bathed in several days, hair long and un-shampood/conditioned.  His robe would likely be stained and not clean by our standards.  His feet would be dusty and dirty and only wearing something equivilant to flip-flops. If someone like this entered your church today, you would likely think him a homeless-person.

On a side note, what Jesus taught more than anything was that it was your internal state of mind/intentions that mattered much more so than the outwardly/external things.  
Additionally who did Jesus hang out with?  The well dressed, proper behaving upper class of Jerusalem? The Bible I read says it was the downtrodden/poor/lesser peoples without the means for the finer things in life.  Yet by your comments its seems like these people would be the least welcomed in your abode.

At what point did wearing all of these modern clothes become the expected norm for proper worship of God?

[John Kavanaugh]

Why there is a 'dress code' anywhere is still a mystery to me. Whatever happened to 'mind own business'? Perhaps more importantly, what ever happened to " ....... the content of their character'?

Humans come in two distinct types [viva le difference and all that]. No surprises except to those who have been taught shame from birth [nearly all of us, then].

Clothing serves some functional purposes, no doubt about it. As for the rest, it is just psycho-social pressures that determine.

Why care?

As for golf, it is a microcosm of human society. The importance of golf course dress codes is silly out of the greater context.

Why care?

Is self-importance [therefore, force others into your mode] the basis of this stylized activity and it's 'need' to define worthiness.

"the content of their character'

No, the question of golf dress codes is not very important in itself; but it does represent well a human 'need' for self-importance that stretches in to virtually all endeavor.

Doug [the psychologist has spoken and you properly should genuflect]  

PS: This question is bound to come up occasionally. Can't resist putting it in context.

Doug,

I went to lunch today with my wife and on the walk back to our car we met a young gentleman who was dressed in a manner that declares himself a misfit and thug.  It bothered me to the point that I moved between him and my wife.  His clothes offended the both of us and I don't know why I should be subjected to this by a kid on lunch break from school.  I'm sure as hell not going to be forced to feel unsafe when on private property where I have ownership rights.  note:  I send my kids to a private school with a dress code.

[Tim Pitner]

Are you talking about the collared shirt with elastic on the bottom that are made for obese seventy year old men.

No.

Tommy,

I can't speak for Kyle, but I think that's bullshit.  Who decides what's "slovenly dressed"?--some old man stuck in another era?  Coat and tie to a baseball game?  No, thanks.  Ties are vestiges of the Victorian era and should be abolished.  Of course, I have my own opinions of what is and what is not acceptable dress, but I try to keep an open mind.  My one absolute rule is that pants must cover one's ass.  

[Bill Brightly]

I was just thinking...when Kyle gets out of school today...you know how he answers EVERY reply?

This is gonna take him all night!

[Matthew Hunt]

Why there is a 'dress code' anywhere is still a mystery to me. Whatever happened to 'mind own business'? Perhaps more importantly, what ever happened to " ....... the content of their character'?

Humans come in two distinct types [viva le difference and all that]. No surprises except to those who have been taught shame from birth [nearly all of us, then].

Clothing serves some functional purposes, no doubt about it. As for the rest, it is just psycho-social pressures that determine.

Why care?

As for golf, it is a microcosm of human society. The importance of golf course dress codes is silly out of the greater context.

Why care?

Is self-importance [therefore, force others into your mode] the basis of this stylized activity and it's 'need' to define worthiness.

"the content of their character'

No, the question of golf dress codes is not very important in itself; but it does represent well a human 'need' for self-importance that stretches in to virtually all endeavor.

Doug [the psychologist has spoken and you properly should genuflect]  

PS: This question is bound to come up occasionally. Can't resist putting it in context.

Doug,

I went to lunch today with my wife and on the walk back to our car we met a young gentleman who was dressed in a manner that declares himself a misfit and thug.  It bothered me to the point that I moved between him and my wife.  His clothes offended the both of us and I don't know why I should be subjected to this by a kid on lunch break from school.  I'm sure as hell not going to be forced to feel unsafe when on private property where I have ownership rights.  note:  I send my kids to a private school with a dress code.

John, what was he wearing? Wearing a hoody doesn't make you a thug (Unless im one )

[tlavin]

There are plenty of places you can dress like a slob and still play golf.  Many golf courses inexplicably don't have a denim allergy and will let people play in jeans.  Other courses let you whack the white one with your shirt out of your pants and still others let you wear a bloody t-shirt.  I suggest that the slobs out there play them to their heart's content.  Very few of them will be on anybody's list to play, which is just fine by me, because I won't have to see any of the slobs while I'm playing.

[Doug Ralston]

Why there is a 'dress code' anywhere is still a mystery to me. Whatever happened to 'mind own business'? Perhaps more importantly, what ever happened to " ....... the content of their character'?

Humans come in two distinct types [viva le difference and all that]. No surprises except to those who have been taught shame from birth [nearly all of us, then].

Clothing serves some functional purposes, no doubt about it. As for the rest, it is just psycho-social pressures that determine.

Why care?

As for golf, it is a microcosm of human society. The importance of golf course dress codes is silly out of the greater context.

Why care?

Is self-importance [therefore, force others into your mode] the basis of this stylized activity and it's 'need' to define worthiness.

"the content of their character'

No, the question of golf dress codes is not very important in itself; but it does represent well a human 'need' for self-importance that stretches in to virtually all endeavor.

Doug [the psychologist has spoken and you properly should genuflect]  

PS: This question is bound to come up occasionally. Can't resist putting it in context.

Doug,

I went to lunch today with my wife and on the walk back to our car we met a young gentleman who was dressed in a manner that declares himself a misfit and thug.  It bothered me to the point that I moved between him and my wife.  His clothes offended the both of us and I don't know why I should be subjected to this by a kid on lunch break from school.  I'm sure as hell not going to be forced to feel unsafe when on private property where I have ownership rights.  note:  I send my kids to a private school with a dress code.

John;

How a misfit? You said 'mistfit and thug'. Could he have been a thug without also being a misfit [fittingly, a thug]? If not, stop being redundant!  

John, I lived in Knoxville, TN, during the years when Jake Butcher & Family/Company ripped off tens of thousands of people for their entire life savings. Thuggery on a GRAND scale. Yet I never saw any one of them when they were not dressed 'in a manner in which they had become undeservingly accustomed'.

And you never told your evidence that the man you met was a 'thug', let alone a 'misfit'.

Aside from all that, I can see your point of view  .

Doug

[John Kavanaugh]

I know he is a misfit because he is attending the school for misfits that is structured for students who no longer can attend regular high school.  The facility is next to where we eat lunch.  I know he was a thug because he intimidated my wife with his "I will not give up my space in the middle of the sidewalk attitude".  I had to move her to my side against the building as he passed and his clothes are just a part of the entire show.