Not OT

[Kyle Harris]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

[Phil McDade]

Because golf is game of a certain decorum -- fairness in play, self-regulated/enforced, keeping yelps and outbursts largely to a minimum. Dressing properly is in the spirit of the game.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

I have a theory that any activity that takes us out into the public arena for a period longer than say, an hour or so, requires some type of uniform.  Consider church, work, school, spectator sports, etc.

Consider also the fact that golf came from traditions where actual club "uniforms" were worn until the latter past of the 19th century, and it's actually a bit surprising that we are able to play our game without some type of consistent conformity with established norms.

I'm not projecting any value judgements on this phenomenom, mind you.   I'm simply trying to explain how we arrived here.  

I guess the good news is that golf fashion. to some degree, at least seemingly tries to model itself on whatever might be seen as fanciful dress for the particular time period, whether that be plaid Sansabelt slacks with a 3 inch thick yellow belt, or the tight-fitting, ultra-short-sleeved, collarless black pasted on shirt of the present European tour.

I also think on some level, we try to show respect for each other through what we choose to wear.   If I showed up at some traditional private club wearing short shorts, a muscle t-shirt, and a sideways cap I would dare say that while I might be flexing my individuality, I would also not be respecting the wishes of either my hosts or the other members of the club, so simple Miss Manner courtesy would suggest that it's best to err on the side of what's generally seen as acceptable.

This is all, of course, from a 1970s rebel.   However, just as important as it is to keep an independent mind is to choose what things are worth fighting against.  

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

Thanks for being my sacrificial lamb. Please don't take this personally.

But that's bullshit.

The spirit of the game is honing physical skills of manipulating a standard ball over a course prepared for the game while following a set of rules overseen in implementation by the golfer. At no point does what I wear influence my ability to do that. Nor does my outside appearance stand as a testament to my integrity or ability to police myself.

So no. Try again.

What I think you meant to say is that dress codes uphold the spirit of the institutions which, for the past century or so, have taken to the game and the advancement of the game. When you are following a dress code, you aren't honoring the game, but the people who govern it.

Remember, golf started on PUBLIC and practically USELESS ground that was shared by everyone in the region.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

I can assure you I'm taking this to a deeper level, for now, I need to root out the preconceived notions of what golf actually is. This will take an architectural turn soon enough.

[Jordan Wall]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

I think it needs to be known that tucking shirts in should always be mandatory.

[Kyle Harris]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

I think it needs to be known that tucking shirts in should always be mandatory.

Why? I find my shirt being untucked to be far more comfortable. Why can't my attire be comfortable while playing golf?

[Phil McDade]

One of my favorite GCA-posted pictures -- I think by Huckaby -- is the 6th at Pebble Beach (arguably one of the most scenic spots on a golf course in the world) with everything but the hole itself blacked out with a marker.

My guess is that's where this thread is going.

For a while now, the aforementioned Huckster has been trying to get the lot of us here on GCA to differentiate between "golf architecture" and the experience of playing the game on interesting courses. I like discussing both parts of that equation, but during the latter, I like to play alongside folks who dress with some degree of respect for the game.

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

Not quite where this thread is going.

But please, tell me why playing golf in jeans and a clean t-shirt is disrespectful to "the game?"

Furthermore, who are you (impersonal) to judge my respect for the game based on what I wear?

[Michael Moore]

"But though the manners of aristocracy do not constitute virtue, they sometimes embellish virtue itself. It was no ordinary sight to see a numerous and powerful class of men whose every outward action seemed constantly to be dictated by a natural elevation of thought and feeling, by delicacy and regularity of taste, and by urbanity of manners. Those manners threw a pleasing illusory charm over human nature; and though the picture was often a false one, it could not be viewed without a noble satisfaction."

Alexis deTocqueville - Democracy in America, Volume II

Tocqueville devoted an entire section of Volume II to manners, required reading (in my humble opinion) if you are serious about researching the subject.

[Dan King]

Kyle Harris writes:
Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

You don't.

The vast majority of courses require no real dress code. If you decide you want to play at courses with dress codes, then you have to follow their rules.

Cheers,
Dan King

If you don't send me a couple hundred pounds a week, I'm going to start wearing your clothes.
 --Simon Hobday (a golfer who was not very fashion-conscious, when asked what he wrote in a letter to the manufacturer of Munsingwear, a line of clothes endorsed by many European golfers)

[CHrisB]

One of the ballsiest (pardon the pun) moves I ever saw was a guy on our high school team back in the day who on a dare (from himself, I think) played the 15th hole of the North Course at The Woodlands (TX) CC naked. Hardest hole on the course and he made a par. Gave new meaning to the term "flop shot".

[JSlonis]

Phil,

Thanks for being my sacrificial lamb. Please don't take this personally.

But that's bullshit.

The spirit of the game is honing physical skills of manipulating a standard ball over a course prepared for the game while following a set of rules overseen in implementation by the golfer. At no point does what I wear influence my ability to do that. Nor does my outside appearance stand as a testament to my integrity or ability to police myself.

So no. Try again.

What I think you meant to say is that dress codes uphold the spirit of the institutions which, for the past century or so, have taken to the game and the advancement of the game. When you are following a dress code, you aren't honoring the game, but the people who govern it.

Remember, golf started on PUBLIC and practically USELESS ground that was shared by everyone in the region.

Kyle,

Perhaps you could look at it from a different perspective.  In my view you are honoring the game by presenting yourself in a certain manner, whether you think it is a dress code or not.  The game of golf by itself would be nothing if not for the people who have played it and have contributed to its history.  People have made golf such a great sport and by dressing in a certain way or even behaving in a certain way, you are honoring the people who have come before you, and subsequently honoring the game itself.

I realize that what someone wears or the presentabilty of an individual doesn't define them, but it definitely makes an impression, right or wrong.

If guys like to wear jeans and tee shirts to play, so be it.  There are many courses that will accomodate them.  Personally, I don't find this sort of dress appropriate for the golf course.  I might be a bit old fashioned for my age, but I don't care for the casual and sloppy dress that we find so often in today's world.  A nice neat pair of pants don't cost anymore than a pair of jeans, it's not asking too much of people to be a bit more dressier.

[Kyle Harris]

Michael,

I've seen many a well-dressed man spit upon the fundamental aspects of the game of golf, often while they thought others weren't looking.

I'd rather play with a slovenly golfer who follows the rules than a well-dress cheating scum bag.

[Phil McDade]

For a while now, I've been getting more "dressed up" for golf games than for Sunday church. That probably says more about the current state of modern Lutheranism than it does for my golfing buddies.

It's a slippery slope, Kyle. I prefer golfing crowds to softball crowds for a lot of reasons, dress being one of them.

[Jordan Wall]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

I think it needs to be known that tucking shirts in should always be mandatory.

Why? I find my shirt being untucked to be far more comfortable. Why can't my attire be comfortable while playing golf?

Let us not forget your first words to me when you saw the picture of me at Kapalua two years ago (wow!).

But you confuse me, a lot, so would you just tell us where this thread is going?

Because, either you have changed your golf course morals (LOL, and I seriously doubt that btw), or you are giving us a load of BS (definite possibility), or you have another one of your crazy theories that somehow makes sense even though it's really hard to explain (ding ding ding)...

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

Thanks for being my sacrificial lamb. Please don't take this personally.

But that's bullshit.

The spirit of the game is honing physical skills of manipulating a standard ball over a course prepared for the game while following a set of rules overseen in implementation by the golfer. At no point does what I wear influence my ability to do that. Nor does my outside appearance stand as a testament to my integrity or ability to police myself.

So no. Try again.

What I think you meant to say is that dress codes uphold the spirit of the institutions which, for the past century or so, have taken to the game and the advancement of the game. When you are following a dress code, you aren't honoring the game, but the people who govern it.

Remember, golf started on PUBLIC and practically USELESS ground that was shared by everyone in the region.

Kyle,

Perhaps you could look at it from a different perspective.  In my view you are honoring the game by presenting yourself in a certain manner, whether you think it is a dress code or not.  The game of golf by itself would be nothing if not for the people who have played it and have contributed to its history.  People have made golf such a great sport and by dressing in a certain way or even behaving in a certain way, you are honoring the people who have come before you, and subsequently honoring the game itself.

I realize that what someone wears or the presentabilty of an individual doesn't define them, but it definitely makes an impression, right or wrong.

Jamie,

That is certainly a worthy view, and I do not begrudge anyone their privilege to wear what they deem is appropriate. However, when one attends a funeral, they typically wear the best attire they own. By some economic standards this would be a well tailored suit and tie, and by others this could mean a pair of nice denim jeans and a clean shirt.

Both are showing respect in what they are wearing.

Why is it that the institutions of the game of golf feel the need to dictate how one person shows respect through a dress code? What true value does this add to the spirit of the game other than a superficial mark of conformity to some unchallenged standard?

[Tim Bert]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

Kyle - Because the establishments at which you play choose to enforce one.

I've played in groups behind guys with plain white tee shirts and guys without shirts on a hot summer day.  I've been paired up with a guy that wore a t-shirt with a picture of a big St. Bernard holding a golf club and the motto "Step back and let the big dog swing."  I've been whooped by a guy wearing blue jeans.

You only need adhere to a dress code if you choose to play at places that require it.  It's a trade-off I'm willing to take, based on the average quality of courses I've played with a dress code vs. the average quality of those without.

Don't like the office dress code?  Go work somewhere else.

Don't like the school dress code?  Go to school somewhere else.

Don't like the golf course dress code?  Go play somewhere else.
 
There are a lot more pressing issues keeping the game of golf from the masses than dress code (I'm not saying that's where you are going with this, but there are bigger problems to solve.)  

Short-sleeve, mock turtlenecks are pretty damn casual.  It's not like we're living in a day and age where the standard golf attire is unpractical.  No one is asking you to wear a coat or a tie.  I've never been much of a dress code guy.  I love the golf dress code.  It's what I'd choose to wear if I were going to play anyway.  Nothing's better than a pair worn-in golf pants.

Please don't take this personally.  

[Kyle Harris]

Phil,

I can certainly understand your aesthetic desires. However, if I were to be invited to your club to play golf, and showed up in well maintained jeans and a clean non-collared shirt... what perceptions would their be by the members before they even met me, played golf with me, or socialized with me?

[David Stamm]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

[Kyle Harris]

Tim,

Earlier tonight on the phone with Doug Braunsdorf I mentioned my desire to only play at places that will allow me to wear what I want.

You've got it, and I don't take it personally. I'm prepared to back up my statements.

I just wonder why people get so bent out of shape about the direction in which the regulation of the game is going in terms of equipment and golf architecture (and furthermore, what is accepted by the majority as quality design) when the very fundamental requirements to play the game at most venues completely curtail any form of individual expression or diversity of tastes.

The values of the game will adapt to the values of the institutions who carry it.

Golf is by nature a diverse and creativity sport.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

I don't necessarily. But I'd imagine because they feel the need to put themselves out for worshipping their higher authority of choice.

Are we now comparing a country club's kangaroo court to God?

[Kyle Harris]

Why do I need to follow dress codes to play golf?

I think it needs to be known that tucking shirts in should always be mandatory.

Why? I find my shirt being untucked to be far more comfortable. Why can't my attire be comfortable while playing golf?

Let us not forget your first words to me when you saw the picture of me at Kapalua two years ago (wow!).

But you confuse me, a lot, so would you just tell us where this thread is going?

Because, either you have changed your golf course morals (LOL, and I seriously doubt that btw), or you are giving us a load of BS (definite possibility), or you have another one of your crazy theories that somehow makes sense even though it's really hard to explain (ding ding ding)...

Jordan, I apologize.

And looking back on those conversations and that thread, you were very unfairly judged by this group. In fact, I'm ashamed of the way you were treated.

This group completely took one picture of you out of context and judged your intelligence, insight and value to the group as a whole based on how you looked.

I also apologize that I may have contributed to this shallow and superficial attitude. Please, please, please give the people you meet in the future the chance to make an impression on you based on the virtue of their mind and not the clothes on their back, nor the looks on their face. Had we done that, perhaps you would have been given a better chance to show the depth of your mind instead of using your relative immaturity against you on the defensive.

I failed you two years ago, please forgive me.

[JSlonis]

Kyle, I don't want this to be a religious discussion, but why do people wear their best clothes when attending church?

David,

You must not have been to church lately.   If folks are wearing their best duds, then jeans and sweatsuits are the new formal wear.

Kyle,

I honestly don't think economic standards equate to someone wearing jeans or someone in more formal attire.  There are enough dressier looking clothes available for the same price as jeans or casual wear, that it isn't that difficult to dress for formal if one chose to.

I don't think someone's freedom of expression or individualism is hurt by the current rules of many clubs.  Aren't their several ways to express yourself in dress without having to wear jeans?

[Tim Bert]

I'd rather play with a slovenly golfer who follows the rules than a well-dress cheating scum bag.

Relatively speaking sure, but absolute scales count as well.  Plus, being well-dressed and following the rules doesn't have to be an either/or proposition.

First, slovenly is a strong word.  I'd rather play with an untidy golfer who follows the rules than a slovenly golfer who follows the rules.  Even farther up the chain would be a well-dressed golfer that follows the rules.

Well, at least most of the rules.  I'll be the first to admit that while I've got a pretty good understanding of the rules and I play by the ones I know, I still learn new rules every year.