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Mark Bourgeois

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2008, 11:36:09 AM »
People keep bringing up this creator vs critic dichotomy but in many fields this dichotomy is one of role not people.

Creators sometimes serve as critics, too. Pick up tomorrow's paper and read who writes the reviews in the book section.

Golf course designers have chosen to refrain from playing the role of critic, at least via public fora, which degrades the overall quality of criticism.

If they want to improve the quality, instead of calling up and comaplaining to amateurs(!) they should perform a service creators in other fields are willing to do. It doesn't mean they have to slam, as good criticism includes explanation - of course, that shouldn't give them license to abrogate the critic's responsibilities.

Mark

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2008, 12:02:56 PM »
 8) Back in college I had a band, while we mostly played in, sometimes we played out.. once we got shut down by the police for disturbing the peace..

i guess critics are essential to maintain a certain standard.. but its always relative..

we just moved on and rocked our own house that night...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2008, 12:22:33 PM »
Speaking of critics, I think Jim Lewis hits upon what I understand is Aristotle's method of criticism; that is to judge the play as a whole work, not the performance by one actor or one aspect of the work.  

I do think that if we are to critique a golf course, it has to be on the merits of the whole course and its overall function in its own context, not the repututation or noteriety of the archie (actor) or individual holes (scenery or individual lines of dialogue in isolation).  

We as consumers are the Hoi Polloi.  We can't be expected to know everything first hand.  Thus we seek out critics who we perceive as knowledgeable to sift and winnow through the issues of judging a work of industry or art, or our government, and we try to familiarize ourselves with critics that reflect our values, and listen to their opinions before we commit or experience for ourselves.  Sometimes the critics opinions fit our sensibilities, sometimes we reject them.   But, if we are careful, we consider the opinions rendered by the knowledgeable critic, and the qualifications of the critic.  

The artist, actor, writer, or person who produces something being judged by the critic then has the choice of how to respond.  One can defend the criticism and remain status quo or stagnant, or concede and collaborate to improve or change.  

Do critics protect the Hoi Polloi from the tyranny of the artist or ruler?  Or, do they become the tyrannts?  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2008, 12:25:43 PM »
Problem is who’s the golf architecture critic?
I think in his early years, Doak was an excellent critc, but we do have to take what he says carefully as he is/was in competition with those he was critical of, so he’s more of a practitioner than a critic.

Now the major critics for Golfweek and GD are also helping to design golf courses. Does that mean they can be impartial? Music critics don’t often record their own stuff, do they? Do movie critics make movies?

Ran used to be critical of poor design, but now he’s seems to be more acceptable of all works…sort of all are good, but some are better than others. A critic has to critical on occasion, no?

Who do we turn to if we want informed and non-biased criticism of a new golf course creation?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2008, 12:42:39 PM »
Don, that is a good question; who do we turn to if so many voices are stiffled by decorum, or convention, such as ASGCA's rule of not criticising other archie's works.  (forgive me if I have that wrong or misunderstood, Jeff  :-\ )

I personally think it is OK for an archie to be a critic.  It is incumbent on the consumer of an architect critic's opinions to recognise the potential conflict of interest, however.  Or even more so a critic who is an ancillary practitioner within the context of golf - the builder, maintenance, or knowledgeable player of golf are all valid critics, IMHO.  Preferably, one who crosses these varied disciplines of knwoledge is best.

But, if we as consumers become complacent in what we allow to stand as criticism, then we will get garbage, like Kavanaugh suggests when he mentions the critic that gives 7.5 in public, and privately goes 6.5, and probably doesn't have all that broad of a base of real knowledge to base any criticism upon, nor any appropriate evaluation system to use.

Personally, I'll always be more attentive to a narrative criticism from someone I think knows the details, than a numerical criticism by one of JK's infamous drive-by hit and runners...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2008, 01:59:24 PM »
Who do we turn to if we want informed and non-biased criticism of a new golf course creation?

Why, John Kavanaugh, of course! :)

In reality, I don't think anyone is capable of non-biased criticism. The important thing is that people are honest about their biases, or at least consistent. Then, familiarity will allow the reader to develop his own standard as to the worth of the opinion.

As a for instance, if Matt Ward says a course is a long slog, I know I am really in trouble. Or if Jamie Slonis or Jim Sullivan says a course is really hard, that also tells me something (although I am always leery of a better golfer who fears a course is too tough for lesser golfers).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2008, 03:21:25 PM »
"If critics pan something and the public loves it that doesn't mean the critics are wrong. As an example, the critics hate the music of Britney Spears and the public loves it. Do you think the critics are wrong?"

Anthony:

Do I personally think the critics are wrong if the critics hate Britney Spears? No, I don't think they're wrong but I've never had the slightest interest in Britney Spears and if the critics loved her I wouldn't have any interest in her. But the critics are wrong as far as her fans are concerned and she seems to have plenty of them.  ;)


"What the public hates to admit is that in many cases the critics do know what they're talking about. A friend of mine used to be the movie critic for Rolling Stone. The dept of his knowledge and the truly vast amount of films he's seen is astounding. He knows way more about movies and can speak and write eloquently about why a movie is good or bad than 99 percent of the people I know. He comes to the table with an informed thought process and I would listen to his one opinion over the millions of lemmings that are the buying public, who would rather go see Rocky XIV over No Country for Old Men."

Anthony:

Perhaps I just have some innate problem with critics who think their audience (their clientele) is about 99% idiots or critical of them as thoughtless. I'm certainly aware of a type of audience who goes to a movie, for instance, to think and be made to really think, but the vast majority of audiences probably go to a movie to be entertained somehow without having to think much. If a critic thinks that makes them lemmings, well then....

« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 03:32:51 PM by TEPaul »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2008, 03:40:05 PM »
TE:

I said people who flock to Rocky XV (another one came out while we were having this discussion) are lemmings, not my friend the critic. He has a more forgiving attitude towards audiences than I.

Anthony


Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2008, 04:16:32 PM »
George,

How many Doak greens have you played?  I can recall 54 myself built over decades of work and believe each one could be substituted to any of his courses without disruption.


Same and interchangeable aren't really the same thing.  Could many of the greens at Pacific Dunes "fit in" at Ballyneal and vice versa?  Sure.  Is there anything like #7 at Ballyneal out in Oregon?  Not that I recall.  The same could be said for many of the other greens.

I don't understand why saying good things about an architect that posts here is deemed such bad form.  If someone says something nice about one of Doak's, Young's, or Brauer's courses then that person must just be sucking up, right?  Heaven forbid someone could have actually enjoyed one of these architect's works and want to share the feedback here.

I think we should all be able to post our opinions about any course - good or bad, participating or non-participating architect - as long as it is done in a professional and courteous manner.  I agree with Kavanuagh that it is dirty to praise a course highly in a public forum and rate it down behind closed doors, but I don't see any problem with singing a course's praises if thats the way you really feel about it.  While I suppose some on this site may have some reason to be less-than-honest when it comes to a review, I think that there are many others with no hidden motives or intentions when providing an opinion. 

Jim Nugent

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2008, 04:24:48 PM »

I would listen to his one opinion over the millions of lemmings that are the buying public, who would rather go see Rocky XIV over No Country for Old Men.


I did not like No Country at all.  The Rocky movies are silly, and the boxing scenes are offensive to me. 

A pretty good movie involving critics and musicians:  Almost Famous. 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2008, 04:33:59 PM »
I bet AP has high regard for readers who possess his book "To The Nines". We are an intellectual, well respected lot in his eyes, I imagine.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2008, 05:53:27 AM »
QUOTE
There are some who would argue that the critic should never lose his vigilante edge and constantly strive for the eradication of bad art, but it is too late, if you didn't stop them entering the mainstream, you can't criticise them out of it.
END QUOTE

Seems true... once in the mainstream, they're pretty much there to stay.

The best analysis requires time. Long after the cheques have been cashed, memberships and real estate sold and the politics of the moment have cooled. Then a redefinition or better definition of their place, body of work, and particular projects can be made. Some will be elevated, some demoted. Some celebrated, some forgotten. Of course some projects are simply monumental; with aficionados and laymen tipping their caps to the genius of the place from Day 1 on.

There has been too little discussion in the years preceding the internet. It certainly wasn't in the interest of magazines to piss off advertisers, and associations frowned upon critical analysis. In fact I had an architect tell me the criticisms should be left to the journalists and non-architects (strange considering I'd criticized all of one project here, simply saying it was a well routed but poor course on an excellent property). Not a healthy scenario for an industry to flourish when the participants can't speak openly.

That said... I guess an architect can lobby a critic... why not?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 05:56:10 AM by Tony Ristola »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2008, 12:04:38 PM »
Joe:

A survey of the dozen or so people who have purchased my book indicates many are erudite, often cantankerous, appreciate sarcasm, disdain hero worship and profess a deep love for Fender Stratocasters from the early 1960s. An inordinate amount is also allergic to Fruit Loops.

They are among my favorite people in the world.

Anthony 


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2008, 01:45:01 PM »
Anthony,

Occasionally, I fill a mixing bowl full of Froot Loops and indulge.

 ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2008, 05:03:10 PM »
Anthony,

Occasionally, I fill a mixing bowl full of Froot Loops and indulge.

 ;D

Joe

Joe/ Anthony,
when you guys mention fruit loops...are you speaking of the cereal or this website ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2008, 05:19:54 PM »
Anthony,

Occasionally, I fill a mixing bowl full of Froot Loops and indulge.

 ;D

Joe

Joe/ Anthony,
when you guys mention fruit loops...are you speaking of the cereal or this website ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mike,

Yes.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2008, 05:32:34 PM »
To paraphrase Bogart in Casablanca, "it's not a critic I mind, it's a CUT-RATE critic".  I've been reading the same recycled views about Oscar Peterson for 20 years, with each new critic who comes online spouting the same nonsense voiced 50 years ago, i.e. that Oscar had technique but didn't swing. (I think Miles Davis first said that about Peterson, and the first dutiful critic quickly took it as gospel and it's been repeated by critics young and old ever since). And I wonder, are they even LISTENING to the music? That seems the least they could do. And if they ARE listening, do so few have the courage and/or integrity to tell us what they're actually hearing without being swayed by the collective/consensus opinion? And the same goes for old jazz stories that often 'colour' and 'add context' to a review, stories that were apocryphal 70 years ago but are now repeated as if they were facts. (On a couple of things I worked on for television that got reviewed, the reviewers added a whole bunch of colour and context that sounded very familiar too me -- not surprising, since I wrote exactly the same words in the press release we'd sent them beforehand.)  A guy's gotta make a living, I know, by geez louise couldn't he at least work a little harder?

Mike - do you think any of this goes on with golf course architecture critics?  ;D

Peter   
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 05:34:20 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2008, 06:33:30 PM »
 8) i found my strat had 6/5/60 written in pencil on the neck, hidden on the end, when i took it off once..  i was critical of its sound until i replaced the front pick-up with a humbucker.. its still there 35 years later..

how many critics are needed to be heard before "critical acclaim" is bestowed?

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Candid discusion of architects work
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2008, 07:27:15 PM »
Steve:

You put a humbucker in Strat? That’s sacriligeous to some people. Your life could be in danger?

There correct answer to your question pertaining to “critically acclaimed” is, no critics, just one good p.r. person.

Anthony

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Candid discusion of architects work New
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2008, 09:01:08 PM »
 8)

AP
.. don't tell anybody but i also took out the wow-wow bar too..  :o or for a while i just had the humbucker hard wired to the jack!  sacre blues!  and i have had to live underground now for three decades..  

frank discussion of gca isn't inevitable, its debatable..  its out there and real. take it or leave it. 

luckily i get to leave it, and go elsewhere to work.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 09:27:26 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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