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Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2007, 02:04:17 PM »
Stan,

Just how tight did the course play the day you were there? I've not seen any detailed photos but given the way it's shoehorned onto that little peninsula...man, by the time you factor in gorse bushes, adjacent holes and a bit of breeze I'm imagining having to fight an urge to steer the ball around and keep it in play.

It doesn't appear that tight. More than 150 photos are online at:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Scotland/Fortrose/index.htm

Ken

You can contrast F&R with the Boat at the same web site here:

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/Scotland/Boat%20of%20Garten/index.htm


Greg Murphy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2007, 02:23:58 PM »
Short par 4's, done well, are tough to beat. I really look forward to them when playing on familiar courses and find them probably the  easiest to remember after playing a new course.

What's too much of a good thing? Thinking inside the box, if a typical course has about ten par 4's, my gut tells me that much over a third of those holes is pushing it, so three is OK but four is pushing it. As Tom Doak points out, it's is a matter of variety. On an undulating site with variable day to day winds from different directions, more could work well.

A short par 4 doesn't have to be reachable to be interesting as Brent Hutto points out. It helps. A par 4 that always takes the driver out of consideration is weaker than a hole that invites a choice.

As to risk, there are two parts to the equation: how likely is "some bad thing" to happen and what is the effect if "the bad thing" happens. On the best short par 4's, I think the likelihood of a bad thing happening for those going the extra yard off the tee or taking the aggressive line ought to be high but it's not at all necessary to ensure the bad thing be catastrophic.

I absolutely respect short par 4's, every bit as much as long par 3's,  long par 4's, short par 5's: they're all swing holes.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2007, 02:56:25 PM »
This thread reminds me that one of my favorite holes on the PGA Tour is the 15th on the TPC at River Highlands.

For the Tour, it plays as short as 285, and still manages to befuddle the players.

Bobby Weed was in the broadcast booth a couple years ago and said that he had been out watching them play the 15th to see how the course held up to the new technology.

He said something like, "Some players put their hand on four different clubs before the picked one. That's what we're trying to do--put some doubt in their mind."

THAT's what makes a good short par four.

Ken
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:59:36 PM by kmoum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2007, 03:55:16 PM »
I just played C&C's new Suguaro course at We Ko Pa just outside of Scottsdale and was delighted to find that they built 2 on each nine. Combine that with their obligatory short par 3 and you would wonder how the owners would receive such a project; obviously it will be difficult to reach the target "championship yardage". However with the addition of 3 really long par 4's, whose terrain allows shorter hitters to bounce one on, they have a respectable total yardage and one hell of a fun course to play. Although these holes give you the opportunity to go low if you play them smartly, they can also destroy your round if you don't plan your attack well. It was very refreshing to see modern architects build 4 short par 4's on what has been a highly acclaimed layout.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:57:14 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Sam Morrow

Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2007, 09:23:27 PM »
How many short par 4's did Oakmont have?

Mark_F

Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2007, 09:50:17 PM »
The Old Course at St. Andrews has eight of them [3, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 16 and 18] and it is not too many.

I reckon it is, given that 3,7,9 and 10 aren't that flash.

Woodlands does a pretty good job in 4,7 and 13, but if you count 3 and 12 in there too, five holes of such length becomes a little monotonous.

Or Royal Melbourne East?1,5,9,11 and 15.

Four would seem to be an optimum number.  Four holes you can come up with a variety of interesting approaches. Five times is stretching it too far, especially if one of those five is a dog; Woodlands 3, RM East 5, St Andrews Beach 7...

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2007, 02:01:13 AM »
 Very encouraging answers for short 4's.  So if defenses are amped up, creating some confusion or, at least, a choice of shots to attack, praise be to the creators.

 One of my favorite shorty 4's still lingering in my memory is the first at Narin and Portnoo, Ireland. The shot from the tee is simple enough but in the 190 to 220ish landing zone are randomly placed pot bunkers at a ever-so-slight dogleg left pitch to the green (so if one were to attempt a drive to it, one would have to carry plenty of tall grass.  The shooter could easily lay up to 180ish and still have a scoring shot to the green, but letting fate into the shot is a thrill.   *

* It's been several years since playing there and the photo at their website does not take me back to what's in my mind's eye. Was it changed? Or is my brain embellishing?  
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 02:17:45 AM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2007, 06:38:56 AM »
I just played C&C's new Suguaro course at We Ko Pa just outside of Scottsdale and was delighted to find that they built 2 on each nine. Combine that with their obligatory short par 3 and you would wonder how the owners would receive such a project; obviously it will be difficult to reach the target "championship yardage". However with the addition of 3 really long par 4's, whose terrain allows shorter hitters to bounce one on, they have a respectable total yardage and one hell of a fun course to play. Although these holes give you the opportunity to go low if you play them smartly, they can also destroy your round if you don't plan your attack well. It was very refreshing to see modern architects build 4 short par 4's on what has been a highly acclaimed layout.

Didn't you just love the 10th hole?  That one tiny bunker at the front of the green really messed with everyone in our group.  

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2007, 11:29:00 AM »
Short testing holes like the 10th surely have a place in golf. It's a credit to C&C that they're more concerned with providing fun golf than a 7400 yard back tee yardage!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2007, 09:50:35 AM »
My count was not based on holes that are driveable -- I think they are becoming a fad -- but on holes under 375-380 yards [which I guess is still driveable for Hank Kuehne].

Sorry Tom, I made the assumption that because the 1st was not on the list (guess that makes it 9) that being drivable was one of the criteria.

I think it is important to look at the over all situation of a hole and course and not just looking at the yardage when defining if a hole is short (i.e. plays short) At TOC it would be very rare that none of the holes would play into the wind and therefore longer.

The first two time I played TOC I hit 3 wood followed by 60 yard SW to the first, the second time driver, 5 iron. The second time it didn't play as a short par four. Another example is ANGC tenth. Catch the down slope and your hitting a short iron in but if your not long enough for the downslope then reaching the green becomes much more challanging.

Is a short par four only defined by the length or rather by the clubs required to play it?

Justin Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2007, 06:40:02 AM »
Woodlands does a pretty good job in 4,7 and 13, but if you count 3 and 12 in there too, five holes of such length becomes a little monotonous.
12 is 349 metres (380 yards)

You'd struggle to get there in two. ;D

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2007, 01:59:49 PM »

Is a short par four only defined by the length or rather by the clubs required to play it?

A bit of both, methinks. Personally, as a shotgun driver (short and scattered), if I arrive at a Short 4, I examine the terrain and probability factors of not going into the OB or lost ball regions and select a club. There are very few drivable par 4s out there for me so it's mostly about the setup for the next shot and perhaps testing an angle. Then again, it comes down to familiarity with a hole or lack thereof. I.e., if I'm going to play a short 4 for the first time (imagine Chambers Bay #12), I'm gonna go for it cuz "Damn the torpedoes!" it's just gotta be attempted.  If I'm playing the 14th at Bandon Trails, since I cannot reach the green's approach, the driver doesn't accomplish a whole lot for me except for getting it further to a tougher angle to the green.  Not worth the risk for "Shotgun Slag".  I think it's a fine hole though. Like many good short 4's, it crushes greed.

  But, if I could drive like Brad "Rifle" Swanson, I'm sure things would look much different and there would be more options for me out there to ponder.

 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 02:16:06 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Brock Peyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Short 4's. How Many Is Too Many?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2007, 09:27:49 PM »
As with most things in golf, there is no magic formula but I think that 1 per nine is appropriate.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 09:28:08 PM by Brock Peyer »

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