[Bill Brightly]

Bob,

I could not disagree with you more. You prefer a CART PATH to a bunker? Sorry, but I find that disgusting. Cart paths may be a necessary evil in today's game, but they should NEVER be part of the strategy of a hole,

And in my opinion, St. Andrews is the only place that gets away with an out of bounds being such an intrical part of the hole. It's the Old Course, its St. Andrews, its all the Open championships, its quaint, its historical. But no other course gets to copy it with a road!

And a good, deep, properly constructed MacRaynor bunker behind the green will indeed invoke a degree of terror, especially since the bunker shot is to a narrow green that runs away from you.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I have only ever seen one tribute to the road hole and that was in Scotland by an american golf course architect not more than 10 miles from St.Andrews.

I was by coincidence at the new course at Crail when Gil Hanse was showing the members his latest job. When we got to the green in question he asked me which one it reminded me of - I quickly cottoned on from the bunker and green form and especially the stone wall in the background. At the time the road hadn’t been established although the intention was there.

It didn’t correspond to the direction of approach but visually it did invoke the road hole.

So I would maintain a “Road Hole” should not only  have the deep revetted bunker, the green form with the steep bank at the back, and a road but also the visually significant dry stone dyke.

[Bill Brightly]

TE Paul

We have the original plans for Hackensack. They are on the inside cover of our 100 year anniversary book. I hate to look at them...because they include 27 holes...including the 9 we did not build...on land that we stupidly sold over the years...

[Bill Brightly]

By the way, whether its a real road, a bunker or water behind he green is NOT the point. The Raod Hole is a GREAT golf hole period because off all the strategy required and options presented on both the tee ball and the approach to the green.

Even a fair copy makes for a great golf hole!

[Mitch Hantman]

Tom,

Which hole at Glen Head are you referring to?

[John Engelbrecht]

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&hl=en&q=kansas+city&f=q&ll=43.071502,-88.039917&spn=0.00118,0.004174&t=k&z=18&om=0

George mentions Blue Mound CC 5th has a pretty good Road hole.  It has the road hole front bunker that could be shorter shaved mowing and a little deeper and more gathering to really be a cracker.  It also has both a bunker standing in for the road, and a cart path behind that.  The angle off the tee is close to over the hotel, and the length is about right.  It could just use a bit more shining up on the approach particularly to the left side of the RHB.

With slight tweaking, it may be the best candidate for really doing exact restoration to make it highly accurate.

What do you think of it as a candidate for further tweaking, George?

Richard and George, recently Blue Mound, with the guidance from Bruce Hepner, removed many trees at the corner and added four bunkers on the right side of the fairway on its number 5 Road Hole. Three of the new bunkers are located  200yds, 250yds and 270yds from the tee. The fourth bunker is approximatley 150 yds from the green. The green side bunker was also deepened. I believe these changes have greatly improved the hole.

[J_ Crisham]

Another fine Road Hole exists at Chicago Golf Club. The 2nd is a monster of a par 4 .From the members tees it is 440yardsinto a prevailing wind. The bunkering is quite penal not to mention the ever present fescue. One can easily see the Raynor influence in addition to C.B.M.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the CBM-SR-CB school of design the only set of architects to attempt to closely replicate the "Road Hole" ?

I find the DEEP bunker behind # 7 at NGLA very onerous, on long and short play alike, and especially when conditions are F&F.  It would seem to be an acceptable substitute provided it runs the entire length of the green and has a good deal of depth to it.

Bill Brightly,

That's great news.

BCrosby,

Replicating a road (active or inactive) and a wall might be too much for the average golfer to embrace.

I'd say the same thing about replicating the sheds.

And, if you did replicate the sheds, you'd have to have more than ample room left that wouldn't come close to other golfers.

Remember, the legal climate in the UK is different than in the U.S.

Bunkers would seem far more acceptable.

[Gerry B]

glad someone finally mentioned #2 at chicago golf club - it is a gem.

i also like the road hole at yale very much - i read somewhere that messr crenshaw also thinks highly of this hole.

[Gerry B]

anthony pioppi - re Fairyland - i was given a cepiatone copy of the original blueprint / course layout  when i last visited there  - it is framed in my office- will check tomorow but do not remember seeing messr banks credited

another great road hole imho - 10 at shoreacres - the start of one of nicest 6 holes stretches in golf

[TEPaul]

"The road hole is one of the most fascinating holes I've ever seen in terms of layout/routing.  Was it really just dumb luck of sorts that this hole has become so famous?  Because to me it sort of looks like they ran out of room and jammed it in where they could.
Or is it the prepsoterous nature of the hole that has made it famous, blind shot over a hotel of all things?"

Kalen:

It was probably all those things that made the Road Hole so famous.

Even the greatest admirers over the years have essentially said that---and even said that about TOC itself.

Obviously much of their reasoning is that TOC preceded golf course architecture in a sense---or preceded a time when most folks thought a golf course and architecture should be something in particular.

The fact is some of those real admirers of the course have said it is so fascinating because it just sort of evolved and has become considered as the prototype of all golf architecture but that there are a number of things about it that no other golf architect seemed to dare copy.

One thing that fascinates me about particularly the Road Hole green and the Road Bunker is that they're supposedly the first dedicatedly man-made major golf architectural features in the world (Alan Robertson). I don't know if that's completely true but it certainly makes it interesting if it is.

BobC:

I know what you mean about other iterations of the Road Hole elsewhere being something less without the road immediately juxtaposed next to the green but swapping other hazard features elsewhere such as a long deep bunker for the road doesn't bother me.

I like the transitioning of features where they are more appropriate than for instance a road in the middle of nowhere. The nice thing about the road along the Road Hole is the road makes sense in that it's a town road and probably preceded the golf course.

But again, I love the idea of tranistioning features. On that Davis Love project in Maryland we've been discussing replicating the Road Hole green as a par 3 iteration. The discussion has been to orient it so one plays at the narrow end on the right---the Road Bunker would be about half way down on the left and the mimic of the road would probably be a long deep bunker on the right.

If it's done it will probably be a copy of the 7th at NGLA, and I think the interest in it will be all the club selections available depending on where the pin is as the green will be very long from front to back but very narrow in front and progressively wider as it goes towards the back.

[wsmorrison]

"Is the CBM-SR-CB school of design the only set of architects to attempt to closely replicate the "Road Hole" ?"

Other schools of design did not teach replication skills.  I understand that the CBM-SR-CB school requirements on day one was that all students purchase a paint by numbers kit  

[Brent Hutto]

Does it have to be a paved road?

[Mark Pearce]

I have only ever seen one tribute to the road hole and that was in Scotland by an american golf course architect not more than 10 miles from St.Andrews.

I was by coincidence at the new course at Crail when Gil Hanse was showing the members his latest job. When we got to the green in question he asked me which one it reminded me of - I quickly cottoned on from the bunker and green form and especially the stone wall in the background. At the time the road hadn’t been established although the intention was there.

It didn’t correspond to the direction of approach but visually it did invoke the road hole.

So I would maintain a “Road Hole” should not only  have the deep revetted bunker, the green form with the steep bank at the back, and a road but also the visually significant dry stone dyke.

I liked the first at the Craighead Links (sic), though as you say the angle of approach to the green is very different (unless you hit a wild hook at TOC or go miles right at Crail).  I also agree that the wall is a crucial feature of the Road Hole, any hole without a wall of some sort loses an esssential part of that green complex.  In my view, in fact, the wall may be more important than the road.

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