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George Pazin

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An interesting quote
« on: November 02, 2007, 02:28:41 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 01, 2007, 11:23:16 AM
I will go so far to say that great potential was lost from 1960 until 2000 as golf attempted to be all things to all people.

Saw this in John's thread on the weakness in the GW Classic course list and I thought it deserved it's own thread.

I don't know nearly enough about all the courses to know if it's true, I just thought maybe some folks with wider experiences could comment.
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Peter Pallotta

Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2007, 03:06:32 PM »
George,
my take on it is that John is probably right, at least in this sense:

That the attempt to popularize the game at the grass roots level and through the building of golf courses in/close to large urban centres produced some pretty mediocre golf course architecture.

If that's some kind of general rule of thumb, it's unfortunate for someone like me.

I think John's point was that some of the great classic courses were built for a golfing class that's roughly equivalent to the class that makes Bandon a success today.  

Peter
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RSLivingston_III

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 03:09:16 PM »
Very insightful statement.
There could be an argument that it actually started in the 1930's.
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"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2007, 03:27:29 PM »
Quote from: Ralph_Livingston on November 02, 2007, 03:09:16 PM
Very insightful statement.
There could be an argument that it actually started in the 1930's.

I find it insighful, too. Not sure where we can say it started, but my impression of the courses built in the 20's was that they were either golf factory muni's or clubs designed to be pretty good courses.

After WWII, RTJ saw the need to toughen, and at the same time soften courses to make them "tournament tests" and accomodate every day play.  That led to long or multiple tees, more bunkers, etc.

In a way, as new courses became more and more public (about 2/3) AND the notion of the championship course came into play, we have tried to build courses that accomodate all, perhaps unsucessfully, and really without questioning whether it could or should be done. I think it probably could until the Pro V1 age, when a good challenge could be had at 7000 yards or a bit more.

Since the longer ball (which really is an evolution with a few jumps) I think it gets harder to do it with length (and six sets of tees) and even difficulty.

Maybe its time to rethink whether every course needs the championship label.
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Mark Manuel

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2007, 03:46:11 PM »
I think the quote is fair, some great potential was lost on some land that could have been better served.  But, I also think there were some really good architects doing some really good work.  Dick Wilson just doesn't seem to get enough respect.

Bay Hill was after 1960 and I think NCR South was also.

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The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.

Garland Bayley

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2007, 04:27:08 PM »
What does it mean to "attempt to be all things to all people"? If we even know what this means, is there any direct evidence that RTJ, or Dick Wilson, etc. attempted it?

Peter's got me confused too. Who is the class that Bandon was built for? How is that the same as the class that plays it today?

It is my impression that Bandon probably attempts to be all things to all people as much as any course out there.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2007, 05:00:53 PM »
Garland - interesting too. What I meant was that, like classic (private) courses were built in the 20s for people with the time and money and inclination to enjoy them, a public resort like Bandon today was built for a 'golfing class' with the time and money and inclination to enjoy it. Times and cultures etc have changed a lot in 80 years; but maybe what made for good architecture then -- i.e. a focus on good architecture and on 'marketing' to people who wanted good architecture -- is what makes for it today too.

Peter
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Jon Wiggett

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2007, 05:03:46 PM »
I think golf tried to become too fair and the courses too manicured through this it lost its connection with the natural setting it should be played in.
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2007, 09:51:59 AM »
George,
I think the quote could just as easily read "I will go so far to say that great potential was lost from 1960 until 2000 as golf attempted to provide enough courses to meet the demand"
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Michael_Stachowicz

Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2007, 10:38:54 AM »
Golf became all things to all people, which means it was dumbed down for universal appeal.  This happens to everything in life that appeals to all people or the lowest common denominator such as beer (Busweiser), music (Spears), cars (Corolla) for the sake of making money.  Only in the last 10 years have companies realized there is a market for something unique (Sam Adams, Bandon) and/or antique (ODG designs).  Golf is simply mirroring society.
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Willie_Dow

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2007, 10:52:30 AM »
Perhaps each course or club should really take a careful look at its own level of supply vs demand, and ask itself why ???
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David Stamm

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2007, 02:43:16 PM »
Quote from: George Pazin on November 02, 2007, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 01, 2007, 11:23:16 AM
I will go so far to say that great potential was lost from 1960 until 2000 as golf attempted to be all things to all people.

Saw this in John's thread on the weakness in the GW Classic course list and I thought it deserved it's own thread.

I don't know nearly enough about all the courses to know if it's true, I just thought maybe some folks with wider experiences could comment.


Am I actually in the minority here? Wasn't the efforts made after WWII to toughen, toughen, toughen and cater to one specific type of golfer why the courses suffered? Weren't the efforts made in the GA to offer mulitple options for multiple levels of players made the courses so appealing? To make the course pleasurable to the broadest group of golfers? Strictly from a design perspective, isn't the reason why success has been achieved recently by a select group of arch's because of an effort to emulate theses values found in the GA, to in fact be all things to all golfers? In other words to design with all levels of golfers in mind?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 02:44:40 PM by David Stamm »
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Adam Clayman

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2007, 04:39:08 PM »
The focus and justification changed as to why Golf courses became built.

Throw in the erroneous NGF numbers (early 80's) on projected demand and what you got were for profit ill-conceived remakes of mistakes.

Potential was not all lost, thanks to one man. Pete Dye. Not a bad definition of a man, either. The guy who saved GCA.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 04:46:57 PM by Adam Clayman »
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2007, 08:04:49 PM »
I don't agree with John, at least not as a global statement.  I think the 60's were dark ages as far as GCA is concerned.  But like the Dark Ages in Europe it was followed by the Italian renaissance.  The diversity of courses built in the last forty years is staggering.  
RTJ, Pete Dye, Tom Fazio, Rees Jones, Nicklaus, Palmer, Eddie Hacket, Steele, et al have done some pretty good work.  Don't jump me, they have also done some dreadful work as well. Granted some like Fazio and Rees may have been consumer oriented more than others,  but I dare say some of the odg's were as well.  
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Garland Bayley

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Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2007, 11:10:51 AM »
David,

If you read deep enough between the lines of my post, you realize I agree with you.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pat Brockwell

Re:An interesting quote
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2007, 07:46:55 PM »
Garland, Bandon for all? What about the cartballers?
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