[Mark_Fine]

I know we talk about it a lot but there is nothing more important than good drainage!

I stopped by a course this weekend to look at some work.  Afterward, I went into the men’s grill and the past President who was involved with our master plan said to me that, “installing the drainage you recommended vs. putting in cart paths was one of the best decisions this club has ever made.  The golf course is playing great!”

Anybody else have any stories where drainage has saved the day vs. putting in ugly and unnecessary cart paths?

Mark

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree, of course.

I added drainage to Colonial in Ft. Worth a decade or so ago. Since that time, they haven't lost a minute of play other than during actual rain, whereas before, a rain might have put them out for days.  I think I have made Colonial millions......

Of course, I had to add catch basins, et al on their flat site, and to some members I ruined their course.  So, to quote Larry the Cable Guy, I could go on all day, but Tommyknockers is currently on board, and I don't want to spend the next few weeks defending my drainage design skills, because I think most participants here think the drainage fairy comes along and takes the water away at night!

[Bob_Huntley]

The renovation of the Dunes Course and the building of the new Shore Course at MPCC were necessitated by the need of drainage, no doubt about it.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Mark:

I don't know about any stories of drainage fixes vs putting in cart paths but in golf and golf architecture the problems on so many levels created by inefficient drainage or the problematic patterns of water flow is pretty much a constant in golf and architecture and architects have been trying to figure out ways of dealing with it for well over a century or century and a half. Obviously with technologies and advanced materials it has gotten much better but it seems like a constant dynamic that likely always needs to be submitted to some kind of landform Hegelian dialetic, if you know what I mean.  

The problem as I see it is golfers and consequently golf architects for a variety of reasons, including Nature's own inherent configurations, just like the concave contour or angle but unfortunately it just creates inherent water flow and drainage problems.

And when it comes to drainage and water and water flow problems that probably isn't even the half of it. The point there is, particularly in the old days, some courses or certainly some holes were just built in places they shouldn't have been to minimize or even deal with water or drainage problems.

And it's not just conditions like constant softness or whatever. Most don't appreciate how incredibly destructive water flow can be to various types of landforms.

I guess most just fail to realize or properly appreciate the weight of water when it's flowing in real volume and flowing fast and how destructive that can be from time to time.

From a capital investment standpoint drainage fixes or efficient drainage is just not appreciated or even realized until it doesn't work well. When it does work well which is generally most of the time most people don't even think about it and certainly don't appreciate it enough to commit the resouces to doing something to fix it permanently.

[wsmorrison]

The greens at Merion East have never had any sort of drainage system other than surface drainage.  As of today, each green now has an XGD system put in.  While top dressing was practiced, it remains a tribute to the original designs of the greens that we were able to go so long without subsurface drainage.  If not for the daily championship conditions the club strives for (and the staff provides) there would be little need to do so.  With some big events coming up, the need to ensure the fastest drying out was the key factor in determining to go forward with the drainage system.

Some classic era architects were very good at surface drainage.  It can be fun for us architecture dorks to locate and consider the methods used.  

Mark,

I'm not sure I understand why the choice was drainage vs. cart paths unless it was a matter of budget.  Was it a prioritization issue that resulted in drainage being done first?  How long before is it before the desired results start showing to the average player?  My guess is some golfers never appreciate the enhanced playability.

[Mark_Fine]

Drainage is sometimes (unfortuntely many times) a tough sell because it is not cheap and it is all underground and out of sight.  If money is spent to put in new sand or add a bunker, or build a new green,... golfers can see the changes and where their money is going.  With drainage, it is not as obvious.  

The case at the club I mentioned was that the course was always soggy and some holes nearly unplayable after it rained.  Carts just couldn't get around without tearing up the turf.  One of the first priorities the master plan committee gave me was to put in wall to wall cart paths so they could play after it rained and get carts on the course.  We studied the property and suggested that we hold off on any new cart paths until after we fixed the problem which was poor drainage.  There was a lot of debate amongst the committee about why $500K or so should be spent on stone and pipe instead of nice new cart paths.  They finally agree to go ahead and now they are thrilled (the improvement was there after the first rain).  I am happy to say, no new cart paths have been added    

We have other projects (particularly one in New York) that needs a similar act of faith that improved drainage will work and be a great investment for the property.  They are coming around and a discussion with this club might help.  

[wsmorrison]

Without intending to be overly blunt, with your limited background, how did you know the proper approach to solving the drainage issues?  Are there specialty firms that are brought in to handle these specific issues?

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I am an engineer by degree  The construction work on this project was done by the Williard Group.  They are a small but outstanding group and are very good with drainage.  As Elwood Williard (the owner) will tell you, designing and installing the drainage is not rocket science.  It's education of the benefits and getting them to allow you to spend the money to do it that is the toughest part  

I think the more examples we can show of success, the more courses will accept this as something worth spending money on.  Those who never played a wet soggy course probably don't know what I am talking about  

The course I referred to in NY needs to spend about $750K on their project.  That is a tough nut to swallow but if done, will be a great investment in the quality of play and quality of turf for the club.  It beats putting in $500K of cart paths.  

[Mark_Fine]

As one can tell by the size of this basin, this course had a real drainage problem  



By studying the surrounding area it was pretty easy to see that the course was effectively acting as a big catch basin and filter for the neighboring area.  All this water needed to be channeled and controlled across the property.  I am happy to say you can now for example walk down #5 and not sink to your ankles in the fairway after a good rain  

Bob,
Your story about those two courses is what I find helpful and I think what clubs in general would find helpful in their own decision making.  Clubs love to hear about what other clubs have done, what has worked and what has not.  Drainage can be a tough sell and successful stories such as yours make decisions to do something easier.

[JESII]

I know we talk about it a lot but there is nothing more important than good drainage!

Which makes me wonder...and it's just wondering...how do today's architects of new courses treat drainage differently than the guys in the 20's?

And more directly...does the term "don't f*** with Mother Nature come into play at all when making the comparison of today versus the 20's?

Is succesful drainage programs a consistent feature on the classic era greats? Or have there been as many drainage systems put into old courses as not?



Jeff B and Tommy N,

Feel free to pass on this if it opens any wounds...

[TEPaul]

Sully:

It has just got to be that today compared to the Golden Age the mechanisms from piping size and materials, construction equipment to install it etc are just so much more sophisticated and effective than they were back in the old days.

Back then golf architects who did their jobs correctly with drainage or water flow had to be more aware of over the surface water flow patterns simply because they basically needed to depend on that more than we probably do today because we have so much more under the surface mechanisms, materials and technologies available to us.

But back then some of the best of the old architects made some pretty egregious mistakes with water and drainage particularly if they were near large bodies of water.

[JESII]

Tom,

All of that you just said there is what was laying beneath the surface (pun intended) of my question about f***ing with Mother Nature.

Do todays guys get burned by trying to do too much underground?

What percentage (approximately) of the classic 100 from Golfweek have had significant underground drainage work done in the last 30 years?

[paul cowley]

Sully....see Seminole.elonimeS ees....ylluS

[JESII]

Sully....see Seminole.elonimeS ees....ylluS

How long did it take you to type out the secong half of that? If it was under 2 minutes you are way too advanced this early in the morning...although it does feel an hour later than the clock says...are you in England?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mark,

I was going to answer that you had an engineering degree, but you took care of that for me!  Glad to see you actually size pipe and basins by rational formula, rather than guess at 12" basins and 6" pipe like so many gca's........

I don't think modern gca's treat drainage that much differently than the old guys. Water still flows downhill.  As TePaul suggests, when drainage was via concrete pipe, it was too expensive for golf course use. When the PVC drain pipes came out it changed the whole ball game.

The biggest influences in using more pipe, IMHO are

The cost, as above

Golf courses in floodplains used as detention basins (intentionally or not!)

Golf courses in housing projects, usually in valleys and taking a lot of nuisance water

Need to open quicker - I believe that long damp swales, often with turf washouts were acceptable in the days when golfers "knew" that courses took five years to mature. Now, we balk at five days after opening not being perfect.

Higher Maintenance Levels - While related to the above, we have found that if surface water travels more than 250' overland, it cuts a channel, or gets damp.  For that quick opening, you need more catch basins or more sod, or both (sodding reduces grow in problems, but the long swales still stay damp under the sod)

Water quality requlations - by law we are supposed to direct surface water away from the creeks to filter areas.  Environmental reggies now make us contradict nature.

And, the one that everyone seems to harp on here,
More extensive shaping for artistic effect - yes, its true that some architects some of the time are trying to replicate what Ross did at Pinehurst or attain some other dipsy doodle contours to enhance chipping, but without the benefit of sandy soils.  Thus, catch basins become a necessity.  And, since those areas work best near critical play areas (who is going to bump and run a chip from fifty yards left of a green?) many times those catch basins end up in high use areas.

JESII-

I would say nearly every course - Top 100 or not - has had continuous drainage work done.  There is a saying in the super business - "you don't add drainage every year, just the years you work there"

I once sent some apprentices to Geoff Cornish's design class.  He said that the typical drainage budget was $50K (old numbers) and my guys said we usually spent 3-4X that.  Geoff's reply was that it probably totaled that after five years, so it was a new trend to just put as much as possible in up front, as the budget allows.

That makes sense to me, as does Mark's first point - never underestimate the need for drainage - is a good one that most amateur gca's and gca fans do not understand at all.

[TEPaul]

"But, Mark's first point - never underestimate the need for drainage - is a good one that most amateur gca's and gca fans do not understand at all."

Jeff:

I certainly think that's true. It sure is or was with me. When I go out on a new construction project it's always a learning experience to find out why some of the things and some of the contours and such I would like to see done are not so possible or feasible due to this over-all subject of this thread---particularly over the ground water flow patterns.

Of course my first reaction is to ask how cautious architects really do need to be in this vein with over the ground water flow patterns as long as the water goes somewhere that doesn't much impact the saturation of the ground in play or just tear up architecture?

But in that vein, I'm obviously finding out that today's architects just don't have anywhere near the latitude the old guys had this way due to today's environmental and permitting restrictions which are so much more severe than back in that day.

[paul cowley]

Sully....see Seminole.elonimeS ees....ylluS

How long did it take you to type out the secong half of that? If it was under 2 minutes you are way too advanced this early in the morning...although it does feel an hour later than the clock says...are you in England?

...no, I'm in Houston bound for Cabo.obaC

You are right.....the hardest part is getting the key board to type in reverse and have the reverse sentence finish on the period of the non reverse sentence.....buts its good practice for designing reversable golf holes.....actually for two holes that come from opposite directions and share the same green.

Now if it was a double green, I would have to put two periods in between.....like so:

Sully Sullivan..navilluS ylluS    

[JESII]

Jeff,

Thanks for that very informative post.

Sadly, the quote below makes the most sense now that you've written it and is likely to never get easier either...

"Environmental reggies now make us contradict nature."


That is likely what I saw (and disliked) about Glen Mills...the fairways all seemed to be cut back into the slopes...

[JESII]

Sully....see Seminole.elonimeS ees....ylluS

How long did it take you to type out the secong half of that? If it was under 2 minutes you are way too advanced this early in the morning...although it does feel an hour later than the clock says...are you in England?

...no, I'm in Houston bound for Cabo.obaC

You are right.....the hardest part is getting the key board to type in reverse and have the reverse sentence finish on the period of the non reverse sentence.....buts its good practice for designing reversable golf holes.....actually for two holes that come from opposite directions and share the same green.

Now if it was a double green, I would have to put two periods in between.

Or just a colon...

[TEPaul]

One of the real ironies of on-going drainage problems is definitely the 11th hole end of the property at Merion East. This area and particularly the 11th green and surrounds is an ongoing drainage problem waiting to happen and happen again and again.

Merion's aware of it but the problem is the Army Corps of Engineers is apparently unwilling to alleviate the backup problem down stream because it is off Merion's property. I guess they just don't want the neighborhoods off the property to bear the brunt of it. It must be something along the lines of making that area of Merion act something like a dam in the worst of water times.

[JESII]

Tom,

Does that green go under water often...or easy?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TEPaul,

In real practical terms, as I tried to describe sometime earlier this year, it would be possible to drain things the way I know they should be drained and leave ground contours in critical areas (like fw's and approaches) if you cut off any crossing drainage out in the roughs beyond the cart path or play areas.

In short, lower and pipe the roughs and leave the fw at natural grade.  Not much different than an engineer putting ditches on both sides of a road to cut surface water off from flowing across.  Its the best of both worlds.

Of course, thats a generality, and site conditons always dictate the best design.

As to Merion, I am not familiar with the situation, but I think you are probably right.  Golf courses are seen by everyone but golfers as the perfect place to back up stormwater to protect houses.  In the big picture, they are, but its hell to create fine turf on an oft wet area.

[TEPaul]

This is sort of off the subject but I just came back from Tuscany and Umbria and some of the slopes in and around some of those 2,000 year old Etruscan communities built up into hills including those walled cities almost defy imagination in how they could survive drainage and water flow problems.

But if one looks very carefully at them in both large and small ways one can see exactly how they've been able to do it for over two millenia.

It's frankly pretty basic but nonetheless totally brilliant particularly for peoples that far back.

And it's not only how they solved the destructive effects of water flow problems, it's also how they managed to capture that water flow and use it for their communities in distinct sewage and for human consumption, not even to mention what they managed to do with overall drainage problems into the valley that created pandemic problems like malaria a thousand or more years ago.

[JESII]

Jeff,

Is there a percent grade that would change your thinking about letting water just drain all the way across a fairway?

Not sure if that is a clear question, and maybe you answered it earlier with the opening day expectations comments.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Water quality regulations - by law we are supposed to direct surface water away from the creeks to filter areas.  Environmental reggies now make us contradict nature.-Jeff Brauer

Jeff,
It's not really a contradiction, is it? The area that now becomes a wide open fairway, or parking lot, or etc., was filtering the surface flow before it was 'disturbed'. You are just being asked to create some semblance of what nature does itself.

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