How do you determine what an architect's defining work is?

[Kalen Braley]

I think comparing concert sets to a resume of courses built is oranges and apples.  Its not normal for 99.99% of the golfing population to play Ballyneal and then jump on a plane to play PacDunes as an Encore.

That being said, if we're going to go with classic defining songs for an artist, its got to be Peter Frampton's "Do You Feel Like We Do" when he uses his voice modulator....very cool stuff.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I actually think of Born to Run -- the album -- as Springsteen's defining work (and I think this entire topic is quite appropriate, regardless of the objections of the posting architects). .. Born to Run the album will be the one that folks talk about for years, well after Bruce has hung up his guitar.

Phil, We're getting way OT here, and we'll have to soon go over to the Dorks Discuss Music DG, because Kalen is clearly mocking us alleged music experts by mentioning Frampton, voice modulator, and artist in the same sentence--hilarious!

But I'm not buying your argument about Born to Run (the album or the song) "defining" Springsteen.  In fact, if you bring that up years from now just to piss you off I'll argue that "Wild, Innocent & the E Street Shuffle"  and "Darkness on the Edge of Town" taken together comprise a better "definition" of Springsteen.

As to the question,  "How do you determine what the artist's defining work is" --for a few great artists you simply can't.  The great ones have a body of work and a life of accomplishments (some great, some not), not a single work that defines them.  Sorry Shivas, but Skynyrd can be "defined" only because they ain't great.

I defy you to name a single Bob Dylan album or Frank Lloyd Wright building or Picasso work (what'll it be--painting or sculpture?) that "defines" them.

[John Kirk]

Actually, Eric, we would argue this forever, but I'd have to say "Like A Rolling Stone" is truly Bob Dylan's defining career moment.  The greatest of his great songs, and it happened right at the moment he stunned the folk community by moving to electric instruments.

I'd also say "My Sharona" is truly The Knack's defining work.

[Rich Goodale]

John

It's a pity you weren't at Kings' Putter I to hear Bob Huntley's  re-mix, "My Barona."

[Sean_A]

Sorry Shivas, but Skynyrd can be "defined" only because they ain't great.

Eric, this statement basically just made you about as welcome on the Hillbilly Tour as headlice.  

And Springsteen is great?  LOL!  That guy is HORRIBLE.  Always has been.  Always will be.  It's too bad John Cougar Mellonhead started writing that "woe is me...lost my job...wife left me...I'm a victim" crap, too, or else Springsteen would have retained his monopoly on pseudo-proletariate poverty-rock garbage.  


There are only two bands that everybody likes when they've had a few -- Skynard and AC/DC.

Shivas

Springsteen was great, but has been washed up since The River.  I would argue the guy has been heading downhill since Greetings..., one of the best debut albums of all time - the man set a tough standard for himself.  The problem with LS is that they are one song and so can easily be defined by Freebird.  I won't even comment on AC/DC - Aussie trash that should never have been given visas.  

As for archies, are they really artists?  

Ciao  

[Jeff_Brauer]

I've given this one a lot of thought over the past few days, mostly while watching a boring 5-0 loss by my Stars......

Anyway, I have concluded I really don't know any more about defining a gca than I did when I first read the post and was kind of just shooting off my mouth in my first response......

I don't think I will post any more on this topic, having come to that conclusion!

[Brad Swanson]

There are only two bands that everybody likes when they've had a few -- Skynard and AC/DC.

The problem with LS is that they are one song and so can easily be defined by Freebird.  I won't even comment on AC/DC - Aussie trash that should never have been given visas.  

Ciao  

Go easy here Sean.  Some folks musical horizons never went past Frat Rock: The 70s

Cheers,
Brad

[David Stamm]

Interesting that the Beatles last released album was called "Get Back." I guess they were trying to restore their own original style after being all over the map over seven years time.

Actually, Abbey Road was the last recorded album. But you are right, Get Back was the last album released. Although piano ballads throughout by Paul is not what I would consider "Getting Back". And being all over the map is why they were great.


   Phil "Fang" Volk, the bassist from Paul Revere and the Raiders, is a close family friend of ours. I remember he telling me over dinner one night his reaction when he heard Strawberry Fields the first time. He was sitting in a studio with his producer and when it was done he turned to him and said "So what the f**K are we supposed to do now". All the bands then tried to follow them and couldn't because they kept zigging when others zagged. And impossible moving target. I'd like to think that the artist, either arch or otherwise, would like to be defined by their entire body of work. While their are some creations that embody alot of what they are known for, I'm sure as TD said that they would not want to be pigeonholed.

[JMorgan]

One's life work is not a single instance but a summation.  That's what makes those brilliant artists who died young such tragic figures.   It's true of gca's as well.  Mike Strantz, for instance.  Or Seth Raynor.   What of George Crump?

Coincidentally, last evening my wife and I watched the Masterpiece Theater version of Jane Eyre, which my wife teaches in one of her survey courses.  Charlotte and Emily Bronte both died very young (38 and 30, respectively).  I never considered the Bronte sisters as universally appealing as Jane Austen or George Eliot -- more loves are thwarted by class and status than by a mentally unstable wife hidden away in the North Tower, after all -- but who knows what incendiary stuff those sisters could have written had they lived beyond 40.

Science has its share of geniuses snuffed out before maturity.  For example, David Marr, brilliant vision neuroscientist in the AI lab at MIT, tragically died in his 30s of leukemia.  His landmark work, Vision, was published posthumously in 1982.  Marr would certainly have gone on to redefine vision research.

[JMorgan]

Interesting that the Beatles last released album was called "Get Back." I guess they were trying to restore their own original style after being all over the map over seven years time.

Actually, Abbey Road was the last recorded album. But you are right, Get Back was the last album released. Although piano ballads throughout by Paul is not what I would consider "Getting Back". And being all over the map is why they were great.


   Phil "Fang" Volk, the bassist from Paul Revere and the Raiders, is a close family friend of ours. I remember he telling me over dinner one night his reaction when he heard Strawberry Fields the first time. He was sitting in a studio with his producer and when it was done he turned to him and said "So what the f**K are we supposed to do now". All the bands then tried to follow them and couldn't because they kept zigging when others zagged. And impossible moving target. I'd like to think that the artist, either arch or otherwise, would like to be defined by their entire body of work. While their are some creations that embody alot of what they are known for, I'm sure as TD said that they would not want to be pigeonholed.

Dave, I often wonder how the Beatles post-Rubber Soul would have been received were it not for the studio tricks of Geoff Emerick.  Sort of like the shaper in the background making all that golf course magic.

[paul cowley]

"One's life work is not a single instance but a summation"

...said James Morgan...which is enough said...last one turn out the lights on this thread.

[JMorgan]

"One's life work is not a single instance but a summation"

...said James Morgan...which is enough said...last one turn out the lights on this thread.

Mr. Cowley, your best work is yet to come.  

[Lester George]

What I have done to date is DEFINED by me, not a defintion OF me.  

Like TD, I hate to catagorized or identified by a "style".  

My best work is yet to come.  Like Endless Summer, I still searching for the perfect wave (site). Until I find it, I'd perfer not to be limited by a defining work or moment.

Lester

[George Pazin]

Certainly an interesting array of responses.

The reason I asked the question is because someone stated Lawsonia was the defining work for L&M, so I thought it was something that was worthy of further discussion.

I think most are reading the word "defining" as too limiting. Fair enough, though I do think that's a bit extreme.

Perhaps think of it this way:

If you were asked to take someone to a single work of a particular architect, which would you choose?

It's not meant to be insulting, just illustrative. It's still fine to disagree, if you so choose, with the premise.

Eric -

I don't read choosing "Born To Run" as limiting as you apparently do. Bruce has certainly done a tremendous variety of work, even within single albums. I just feel like the totality of the song - tune, words, flow, whatever - best illustrates his approach to the world through music. It has nothing to do with what's most popular, what the fans most want to hear, etc. It's not even my favorite song of his.

[Phil McDade]

There are only two bands that everybody likes when they've had a few -- Skynard and AC/DC.

Dave:

I'll concede AC/DC (my 14-year-old has just discovered them -- yikes!), but not Skynard (and even AC/DC takes a few hops and barley drinks). Skynard had one terrific song, a few other decent ones, but was essentially a warmed over, riff-ripping-off, Allman Bros. band (pre-motorcycle crash, that was a band worth listening to...) Drive-By Truckers is doing Skynard much better these days than Skynard ever did.

Eric:

We'll probably have to agree to disagree about Bruce (and Shivas is full of it...has he ever seen him live?). While I certainly think the Wild... is a tremendous record, Springsteen to me really re-directed his music from a sort of Dylan-esque rock-folk thing with jazzy overtones (remember that album had David Sancious on piano, who surely listened to a lot of McCoy Tyner growing up) to the Spector-esque Wall of Sound combined with his and Miami Steve's terrific guitar work on Born to Run. The weakness of Darkness to me is that it is of a time, clearly reflective of his bitter recording contract battle that delayed the album for some three years. And Springsteen (again, Shivas should read some lyrics) to me has never been a songwriter focused on the downside of life; he chronicles a certain slice of Americana, but usually in a fairly upbeat way, if you dig into what he's writing.

OK -- enough dorky music writing. How was Erin Hills? Agree w/ John K. on the merits of the 1st?

George:

I feel obligated to respond, since it was my comment about Lawsonia that prompted your thread. I guess I was trying to answer a somewhat hypothetical question that probably gets tossed around among GCA junkies -- if you could show only one course today that best presents Architect X's work, what would it be?

I'd actually like to see some discussion, for instance, about the merits of San Francisco vs. Winged Foot (or others) for Tillie, or Mackenzie's famous trio (Cypress, Augusta, Melbourne), or Ross or Flynn. It's sort of a non-starter debate for the likes of Fownes, Crump and Hugh Wilson, of course, but for Langford/Moreau, I can't think of a course that better represents their work than Lawsonia, based on what I've played and read about and seen posted here on GCA.

[George Pazin]

I'd actually like to see some discussion, for instance, about the merits of San Francisco vs. Winged Foot (or others) for Tillie, or Mackenzie's famous trio (Cypress, Augusta, Melbourne), or Ross or Flynn. It's sort of a non-starter debate for the likes of Fownes, Crump and Hugh Wilson, of course, but for Langford/Moreau, I can't think of a course that better represents their work than Lawsonia, based on what I've played and read about and seen posted here on GCA.

An excellent thought, I'd love to see this myself.