Laying up on par threes

[Raymond]

Has anybody mentioned the 16th at Cypress Point? My caddie highly reccomended I lay up but if you only get their once laying up is not an option. BTW, I ended up just off, chipped on and made par.

[Tom Huckaby]

Has anybody mentioned the 16th at Cypress Point? My caddie highly reccomended I lay up but if you only get their once laying up is not an option. BTW, I ended up just off, chipped on and made par.

LOL
That has been discussed only a few times in here - like thousands.  In fact some participants have had geographical land bodies named after them for this hole and their layup practice on it.

Methinks you have it assessed correctly in any case, Raymond.  If there is anything at stake, then the higher percentage play for most golfers will indeed be to lay up left.  Thus I would guess members, and people who can't confidently carry the ball 200 yards, should and do play left most of the time.  But for visitors, well... I find reasons to go left difficult to rationalize.

TH

[Tim Bert]

Has anybody mentioned the 16th at Cypress Point? My caddie highly reccomended I lay up but if you only get their once laying up is not an option. BTW, I ended up just off, chipped on and made par.

LOL
That has been discussed only a few times in here - like thousands.  In fact some participants have had geographical land bodies named after them for this hole and their layup practice on it.

Methinks you have it assessed correctly in any case, Raymond.  If there is anything at stake, then the higher percentage play for most golfers will indeed be to lay up left.  Thus I would guess members, and people who can't confidently carry the ball 200 yards, should and do play left most of the time.  But for visitors, well... I find reasons to go left difficult to rationalize.

TH

Although it is also pretty cool to have a geographical land body named for you at the greatest course in the world!

[Tom Huckaby]

Has anybody mentioned the 16th at Cypress Point? My caddie highly reccomended I lay up but if you only get their once laying up is not an option. BTW, I ended up just off, chipped on and made par.

LOL
That has been discussed only a few times in here - like thousands.  In fact some participants have had geographical land bodies named after them for this hole and their layup practice on it.

Methinks you have it assessed correctly in any case, Raymond.  If there is anything at stake, then the higher percentage play for most golfers will indeed be to lay up left.  Thus I would guess members, and people who can't confidently carry the ball 200 yards, should and do play left most of the time.  But for visitors, well... I find reasons to go left difficult to rationalize.

TH

Although it is also pretty cool to have a geographical land body named for you at the greatest course in the world!

It is indeed.  Dave Moriarty has always been proud of this.
 

[SPDB]

Huck:
I think it comes down to familiarity with a hole and course management.

A player, even a good player, can step up to the tee at the 3d at WFW and not be too intimidated by this seemingly straightforward 195-210 yard shot:



After the first play, however, you notice that the green end (and the front pin position) looks something like this:



a couple of more times through and you might conclude a 175-180 yard shot short is the better and safer option. But this is strategy, which is also dictated by pin position.

CPC #16 however is different. A player might step up and conclude, I just don't have the distance to get there, in which case for that particular person the strategy is dictated to them.

I'm with you and prefer holes like WFW#3.

Michael Dugger posted this picture of a (par 4) hole at Tetherow that I found interesting (and asked him about it.)
(this is from behind and to the right of the green)


Hitting the green anywhere but that little front right area is a miss. Hitting it short right but not on the green seems like a savvy play. Interesting hole. Not sure how I feel about it.

[Tom Huckaby]

SPDB:  WFW#3 worked out EXACTLY as you say for me the one time I played it.  I saw the exact view you posted and concluded exactly as you say - that is, what's the big deal?  Casper must have been on ludes.  Then I hit what I thought was a great shot... 15 feet above the hole.  Three putts later - the first going off the front of the green - I realized that Casper was one smart dude.  If I ever go back and there's that front pin again, I lay up.

Now re 16 CPC, of course if one can't confidently carry the ball 200 yards, one's strategy is dictated.  But if one can do that.. well... the choice is a great one.  It takes a LOT going on or a LOT of devotion to score or strategic choice to go left, given where one is...

TH

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have not played PV as many times as Tom Paul but when I do I also lay up on number five. The only exception ws the first time where I hit a three wood that magically landed on the green.. I bet Gene Little wishes he had laid up in his match with Byron Nelson.

I never lay up on 16 at Cypress Point.  It is too fun to go for the green.

There is also a hole at Charleston CC where I will lay up.  My memory isn't so great but I think it is number 11.  The green is raised some ten to 15 feet al the way around the green.

[Ian_L]

A layup might be appropriate on this par 3:

Crap, can't get the image to work...

[Jed Peters]

The third at pasatiempo.

No doubt, a mid iron shot over the carry bunker to the left side of the fairway with a pitch on may be a smarter play than hitting fairway wood or driver for some.

With some of the membership at Pasatiempo, this is more out of necessity than choice as well.

Hmmm... not sure I agree with this, Jed, at least not for those with the ability to hit a ball 220 yards decently straight.

I'd say aiming left is the wisest play, no matter where the pin.... but I can't see intentionally leaving the ball on the hill.  The front right bunker is not a horrible place, and heck even right trees is not going to be totally dead - not to the extent of intentionally foregoing any chance at the green.  Beyond this, where does one leave it to have an easy shot?  Anything on the hill short left will be a blind pitch, not exactly all that much better than the worse results nearer the green....

And Garland, I'd say we have discussed laying up on individual holes lots of times - but not the general concept, not the questions Andrew asked.  Do you recall this?  Not that it matters much.... hell repetition is everything here.  I just think young Andrew deserves some credit for trying.  

TH:

I have never laid up there. But it's my understanding from a member that lots of people lay up way on the hill to the left, leaving them an easy pitch on. The pitch itself would not be blind from that angle.

I've made lots of high scores going for that green....I bet I'd take no more than a 4 if I laid up....

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed:

We need Rob Chestnut.  I've never heard of anyone who can make the green purposefully laying up.  Favor the left, yes.  But there's no good place to leave it... it's far from an easy chip from short left... downhill/sidehill lie to green raised above, and yes it will be blind unless you get it damn near all the way up the hill, in which case you could have made it anyway....

Sorry man, I'm not seeing it.

Like I say, if one can't effectively reach the green, then yes, one hits it to the left as far up as he can.  But that's not a layup... that's just hitting the farthest shot one can effectively hit.

Methinks that is what many members - or others - do.  And it's charitable to call that a "layup."

 

[Jed Peters]

Jed:

We need Rob Chestnut.  I've never heard of anyone who can make the green purposefully laying up.  Favor the left, yes.  But there's no good place to leave it... it's far from an easy chip from short left... downhill/sidehill lie to green raised above, and yes it will be blind unless you get it damn near all the way up the hill, in which case you could have made it anyway....

Sorry man, I'm not seeing it.

Like I say, if one can't effectively reach the green, then yes, one hits it to the left as far up as he can.  But that's not a layup... that's just hitting the farthest shot one can effectively hit.

Methinks that is what many members - or others - do.  And it's charitable to call that a "layup."

 

Tom, one last thing--would a 220 shot legitimately get to the front edge of the green?

I thought the tee we usually play is 217? and certainly that's two clubs uphill?

Lastly, Rob told me that the tee USED to be even further back into where the trees are now. Could you imagine that hole 60 years ago? Ouch.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed:

From the tippy-tips it takes effectively more than 220, of course.  So many can't make it.  But from where the blue tees normally are, I'd say an effective 225 shot gets one to the front.  Of course that bank tends to reject balls also... it is a very long tough shot for sure.  I just continue to fail to see an effective place to leave a true layup... thus I think those who can make the green do tend to try, if only for lack of such a layup spot.  What I mean is I just can't see a strong player intentionally hitting it 180-200 or whatever up that hill to leave him that sidehill/downhill blind pitch.  I just can't see that as being a smart play.  That's not to say people might not do it... I just don't see it as being all that smart.  I sincerely doubt a strong player would score less in the long run via that route.

And again, those who can't make the green just do the best they can, and yes are better favoring the left, as far up as one can go.

As for the tee being farther back, wow.. it then becomes a legitimate par 4.

TH

[Bill Brightly]

Jed,

I was stunned at your first post. You lay up??? I couldn't get the driver out of your hands with a crow bar at Saucon Valley...

But then I read your second post and realized that the Earth's order was still in balance

[rchesnut]

I thought this thread might include a discussion of Pasatiempo #3.  First, the hole is 217 from the tips, and it plays another 15-20 yards up the hill.  And the green is sloped severely from back to front, so the pin position matters...the nasty back right pin plays a good 245 (if you're seriously trying to get it there), while the front plays more like 225. 

A number of members can't hit it that far, but still play the back tees...so they lay up left because they have to.   Those that can hit it 225 or more generally don't lay up, and here's why -- it's very difficult to lay up  because there's a lot of slope just in front of the green, and it's cut tight.  So if you bounce it to the front left area short, it doesn't stay, it rolls back and to the right, leaving a tricky severe uphill pitch from the rough or from a tight lie in the fairway.   For front pins, there's a backboard (the ridge in the center of the green) that smart players can use, but often a player will get too cute and leave the pitch short of the green, and end up back where they started.  For back pins, it's very tough to get that uphill tight chip all the way back there, the ridge knocks you back and you're looking at a long and tricky 2 putt.  Either way, it's not an easy 4. 

So, you say, aim further left and put your lay up in the left rough or left bunkers.   But the green also cants from left to right, and the downhill pitch from the left rough has to be just right to clear the left bunkers and still stay on the green without rolling off the other side into the right bunkers, particularly for the front pin positions.  It's somewhat easier for back positions from the left rough, but still not easy. 

A better chipping position would actually be short of the right greenside bunkers in the rough.   But the diagonal fairway bunker, combined with the deadly greenside bunkering right and the trees right, makes this an extremely difficult shot to execute, no one would intentionally try it. 

So the consensus at Pasatiempo as of this month is to go for the green, avoid missing the green right (where double or worse is common), and hope for the best.

All this may change next month, when the club partially restores the original #3 tee...that's right, in a couple weeks the club will begin work to extend the #3 tee back to (almost) its original length, and we'll be faced with 235 or so uphill to the middle, adding another 15-20 yards to above calculation and bringing the diagonal fairway cross bunker into play.   When that happens, laying up may start to look better and better...I'll report back at the end of the year after my friends and I make a few double bogeys from the new back tees. 

Rob

[Tom Huckaby]

Rob - many thanks - that's how I thought it would play - you confirmed what I've stated earlier - that is, those who can make it try, those who can't just hit it the farthest they can up the hill to the left.  And the reason those who can make it don't purposefully lay up is just as you say - and I said before - there's really no good place to leave a layup.

As for that new back tee, well... that will help when you have the big/young boys play!  It might force them to actually hit a long iron.  For most of the rest of us, man that back tee means if we do wish to make the green we have to suck up the ego and hit driver (or at least that will be what it means for me).  I wonder if that will change the equation though... man short left still isn't all that much better than in the bunkers right.... trees right is dead yes, and with a driver that becomes more likely... in any case, it will be interesting.  I may also just play the whites where I belong.   

TH

[Michael Blake]

Similar to Raymond's post,

I think I recall Mr. Mucci posting about a round he played at CPC and he asked his caddy about club selection or line of play or something.  And the caddy replied, "If you care about score, then lay up short and left, if not, have a rip at it."  Or something  to that effect. 

I guess I feel the same way.  And since I'm a mid-handicapper and score does not matter to me, I can't see laying up on a par 3 regardless of the length or the lurking danger.


....though I have seen lots of my friends "underclub" and end up short when playing the 3-putt game for money.  bastards.

[George_Bahto]

C C of Charleston’s Reverse Redan 11th

Here is a short excerpt from the “Raynor-book” about the (in)famous 11 .......

The ramp has been eased in recent years.

*

And then there is the 11th; one of the most maligned golf holes Seth ever built.  A huge tabletop Reverse Redan of unimaginable proportions and a difficulty to match.  There is a long ramp feeding up to the green; the green flanked in front by a bunker of about 12 to 15 feet deep and a bunker behind that is deeper still.  What is strange here is the green is not the usual 45 degrees off the line of play but a bit more than half that and with the prevalent trailing wind, the tee-ball is extremely difficult to play.  The hole is essentially poorly designed for over the years the best of players, including the golf professions, just play to the ramp to the green rather that playing to the green itself, hoping to chip over the crest of the Redan green to gain their par or at worse, with this play, they will bogey the hole - but they have probably kept a high number off their scorecard.  Legend has it that even the great Mr. Picard played the hole in this manner. The hole has probably been called every name in the book, but personally, I think it is a fun hole and certainly a swing hole in a match.”

There are 3 interesting pictures in Ran’s CC of C course profile

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/charleston000158.html

[Ronald Montesano]

The 11th at Cherry Hill (Travis, Fort Erie, Ontario) is about 175 yards long and was remembered by Lee Trevino as one tough mother.  It is like a skull, with a jaw at the front, two bunkers where the cheeks go, and a four feet rise to the back tier.  Miss it right, left or back and you have no recovery and an excellent chance at double bogey.  I play 7 Iron to the front and hope to chip up and in for par.

[Mike Benham]

How about the 6th at Rustic Canyon.  Perhaps not a beast at only 216 yards and downhill, but the "miss" is better short then long.

For those that have played the course more than I, is there much success in playing the shot purposely short, by 5 yards or so, attempting to get a favorable bounce/roll through the swale?