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Mark_Fine

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2007, 10:23:34 AM »
Tom,
You make a good point about offsite issues that impact and bottleneck drainage problems for golf courses.  We have a project in NJ that has had a similar issue to deal with.  Basically there is a damn (it is really a bridge) that is well off the golf course property but it acts like a damn and backs up water all the way to our golf course.  We had all kinds of experts study the situation and there is not much we can do other than petition for the bridge to be rebuilt.  The problem is that it is a compounding problem and when you release water at one spot it always goes somewhere else.

Jeff,
The comment you made about “golf courses are seen by everyone but golfers as the perfect place to back up stormwater to protect houses” is right on.  Expanding on that thougth, at our one golf course project in the Poconos, the golf course will effectively act as a huge filter for effluent coming from a new real estate development that is being built.  The irrigation system alone will cost over $2MM (this includes many spray areas off the course, in the woods, basically anywhere there is soil/vegetation).  It is hard to comprehend but this is a necessary role for the golf course otherwise it would cease to exist.  This is some of the behind the scenes glamour of GCA  ;D  By the way, Paul Granger is doing the irrigation design work for us on this project.  He is very good at what he does.  

Jim,
I'm sure Jeff will comment in much more detail than me but I think most GCA's aim for surface drainage of at least 2% of fall often times supplemented with subsurface drainage of tile or pipes.  Most don’t like to drain water across or down the middle of a fairway and if so, plan on no more than 50 yards to a catch basin or tile inlet.  

JESII

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2007, 10:35:02 AM »
Mark,

What I am wondering, and you know HVCC, and Jeff may not...is, would an architect today do something other than let all of the water drain right into the creek at the bottom of that valley? I understand if the regulations would preclude that, but let's forget about the regulations for a second...is there a design explanation for not allowing the full valley effect to take care of the water?

TEPaul

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2007, 10:42:44 AM »
Sully:

That's a very good question indeed.

It should probably be for someone who's really familiar with the permitting problems and solutions of recent times versus when Flynn built HVGC to answer something like that.

Something tells me some regulatory entity today would have something to say about not allowing the water that gets collected across that entire course and discharged wherever it is discharged to be done the same way today (if the course was being built today) as it was when Flynn built it.

I think you can get a hint of that due to the restrictions today against putting some of those "C" nine holes back the way they once were.

Matthew Hunt

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2007, 10:45:46 AM »
How long does it take fo Drainage to pay fo itself in green fees?

Bill_McBride

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2007, 10:56:52 AM »

The case at the club I mentioned was that the course was always soggy and some holes nearly unplayable after it rained.  Carts just couldn't get around without tearing up the turf.

Mark, that is a 100% description of Pensacola Country Club before Jerry Pate's recent rebuild.   :-[

The course was 80 years old, on flattish terrain just above the level of Pensacola Bay.  The old irrigation system leaked like a sieve.  After most any heavy rain, several fairways eventually became lakes.  In the Gulf Coast summer, it's tough to tell the older members they can't take carts, so the course got even more torn up.

Hurricane Ivan brought the issue to a head.  Luckily, the board prevailed (I was one of the unfortunate 15 who served the year before, the year of, and the year after Ivan!  ::) ) and we were able to hire Jerry to design a new PCC using most of the existing corridors.  His plan called for a chain of new lakes that provided sand to cap the fairways and an outlet for all the new underground drainage.  So far so good, we have only had to close the course one day, and that was the day after a 14" gulley-washer last month.

Agreed - modern drainage design and construction can really save a soggy older course - if the members can be persuaded to spend the money.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcpcc.html


Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2007, 11:09:36 AM »
JES,

I am not sure its slope related, but volume related.  And, it doesn't take a lot of volume for cart or mower wheels to cause a rut, which backs up more water, which causes a bigger damp area, etc.

Steeper slopes cause even more erosion during grow in, esp. depending on the soil, so they are a problem then, even though after grow in 3-4% wouldn't stay wet.  In clay, 2% stays wet, in my experience.

With fabric netting and sodding reducing erosion, I think overall, you are right, we can use less fw catch basins at about the same cost.

As to draining right into a creek, generally that's a no no. The water would be piped to a man made wetland or dry detention area to make it sit for a while to settle out contaminants.  Studies show that most input wash off occurs in something like the first inch of rain.  Then, after a few inches (depending on soil, slopes, etc.) the inputs get diluted enough as to not worry about them (or at least they meet minimum EPA guidelines)  So, those detention areas are sized to hold a 1-2.25" rain before they can overflow into the creek.

Matthew,

Now that is a great question and one I ponder often.  Of course, the higher the greens fee the quicker the return. More importantly, its the high dollar courses that usually host golf outings and in addition to getting those played on time (assuming an afternoon shotgun follows) there is the image factor of having too many outings rained out that affects ability to book them later on.

Basically I size pipes and basins so water will not stand more than two-three days in a 100 year storm. I do this because if water sits in August heat longer than that, most turfs won't survive.  If a 100 year storm is 9" in 24 hours, then I design for 3-4.5" in a day, or about .25"-.5" per hour which also drains most every day storms right away.  Usually a one year storm is over an inch in an hour and a two year storm is usually over 2" an hour, depending on region, of course.  

Environmental reggies actually favor ponding water around every catch basin for a bit to settle out inputs, so draining faster than that is sometimes not allowed anyway.

So, my drain design criteria usually delays play at least a few times a year, unless the owner has decided to spend more on pipe.  Even for revenue and image sake, I don't find it pays to drain much more than a one year storm immediately.  I think anyone recogizes that there will be a delay once or so per year on average.  Two years would be tops.

So, you can do the math of losing three golf outings a year.  144 players at whatever per head.  As to regular play, if it rains 60 days a year in your climate, and you figure by pure chance a third of those would be in the 8 night time hours where they wouldn't affect play, you would have to deal with rain 40 days as an operator, and only a few of those would require down time after the rain to allow puddling to subside.

Back in the old days, I used to drain courses for a ten year storm, but found that other gca's could build courses so much cheaper than mine that I was losing business.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2007, 11:19:54 AM »
My sadly limited experience with both old golf courses and new suggests that the ODG's relied more on contour to drain a course, while the NAG's (that's kinda funny!) rely more on technology.

I think I prefer the contours.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2007, 12:15:21 PM »
George,
Or "ditches" as in the case of Oakmont  ;)

Jim,
I think Jeff answered your question.  Every situation these days seems to be case by case specific.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 12:17:09 PM by Mark_Fine »

Kyle Harris

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2007, 12:56:35 PM »
Not sure how relevant this is to the topic, but the case of HVCC is certainly a unique one, as I've never seen a golf course take a knee to the balls in terms of rainfall like Huntingdon Valley can.

There was one morning where most of the 17th green was submerged and it was completely playable by the next morning. I believe Cory Lewis and Daryl Boe played that day and were amazed by how dry everything was.

How much does what is downstream influence the ability of a golf course to drain itself? Huntingdon Valley is lucky in that there is almost 4 miles of undeveloped stream bank downstream before the creek hits development just west of Philmont on the Pennypack. Essentially, there's places the water can go before it gets diverted by man.

I can imagine that the ability of the water to continue moving downstream is a big big big factor in how well a course drains - man made drainage or not.

Are the footprints of golf courses just too small to ensure adequate golf course drainage?

wsmorrison

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2007, 01:46:09 PM »
" Wayne,
I am an engineer by degree"

Yes, but I didn't realize they teach you about golf course drainage in your chemical engineering program.  Do railroad engineers know how to drain a golf course as well?   ;)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 01:48:23 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Joe Hancock

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2007, 01:54:33 PM »
Paul Cowley,

Is it palindrome Monday? Or backwards Monday? How can I go strangely OT if I don't get the memo's?


 ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2007, 02:23:59 PM »
Wayne,
Chemical engineering was way over my head.  Those guys worked much too hard.  All I could handle were the civil and industrial engineering courses  ;D

By the way, one of my best professors from my post graduate school training has been the famous Dr. Richardson.  Most people don't know Forrest is a doctor (at least he tells me he is)  ;D  
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 02:33:36 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2007, 03:24:48 PM »
Not sure how relevant this is to the topic, but the case of HVCC is certainly a unique one, as I've never seen a golf course take a knee to the balls in terms of rainfall like Huntingdon Valley can.

There was one morning where most of the 17th green was submerged and it was completely playable by the next morning. I believe Cory Lewis and Daryl Boe played that day and were amazed by how dry everything was.

How much does what is downstream influence the ability of a golf course to drain itself? Huntingdon Valley is lucky in that there is almost 4 miles of undeveloped stream bank downstream before the creek hits development just west of Philmont on the Pennypack. Essentially, there's places the water can go before it gets diverted by man.

I can imagine that the ability of the water to continue moving downstream is a big big big factor in how well a course drains - man made drainage or not.

Are the footprints of golf courses just too small to ensure adequate golf course drainage?

Kyle,

You are correct. The water downstream has to go somewhere before the water on the golf course can replace it in the ditch. If its slow, the water table backs up slowing down drainage on the course as well.

A lot of things can influence drainage in watershed basins.  For example, if rain storms tend to move the same direction as a creek flows, a small area tends to flood more than average, as the new rain follows flow down the creek.

If rainstorms generally move east and the creek flows west, runoff is lighter since the storm makes a "glancing blow" over the water shed.

As many cities required detention basins to slow flow in their area, and all were designed to similar criteria, it turns out that flooding is about the same, but later, as all those detention basins empty at the same time, but a few hours or days later than the actual storm.  My Sand Creek course in Newton actually took out the detention requirment to allow upland flow to cross the golf course more quickly after an engineer studied the entire region's drainage.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2007, 04:40:47 PM »
Speciality firms are not 'needed' though now more often 'required' to perform the rather uncomplicated calculations for drainage on a golf course, job security I think  ;) however, as stormwater management issues continue to rise in ecological popularity with water quailty issues on the forefront, municipalities who are reviewing and approving projects along with federal agencies--when involved, do REQUIRE a civil engineer to be involved with all calculations and report writing...at least in many states in the NE, I live and mostly practice in NY.

I am quite familiar with both projects that Mark mentioned and the PA effort was a huge success and the best decision that could have been made during planning was NOT to do paths, but to correct drainage.  Good drainage, when truly needed on an older course is a long term correction with minimal (overall) maintenence, whereas, paths will require extensive short term maintenance depending on the materials used for the paths and that has nothing to d with the visual disturbance they impart as well :P

The average player CAN SEE AND EXPERIENCE the difference good drainage can make the first time they want to play after poor weather, or early in the spring especially here in the northeast or on soils that don't drain well naturally.  Course A they can play anytime--it has good drainage and conditions are dry, and manageable, Course B has poor drainage, extensive saturated areas in play and out and carts are not even allow because of the damage they will cause.  Seems obvious to me which golfer would notice  ;) ;)

TEPaul

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2007, 05:35:27 PM »
Wayno:

Do you know if railroad engineers design and lay the tracks or drive the trains or collect tickets or all three? Frankly, when I was regularly taking the Long Island railroad home from the city late at night in my younger and wild and crazy days I was generally too drunk to notice.

I stopped doing that kind of thing after taking the milk train one night. I went into the toilet on the train and on trying to get out the door handle fell off trapping me in the toilet as the train went to the end of the line and stopped for the night.

I could see the engineers and the rest leaving the train through a little screw hole in the wall of the toilet. I yelled as loud as I could but noone heard me. So there I stayed until they came back the next morning to run the train back to the city.

It's just amazing I'm still around after shennanigans like that. I've spent the night in some real dives in my life but spending the night in the toilet of that rundown old Long Island railroad train pretty much took the cake and I didn't learn a damn thing about engineering or drainage either.

wsmorrison

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2007, 05:52:03 PM »
Tommy,

When railroad engineers aren't consulting on golf course drainage, those guys do everything from taking tickets to rescuing hung over commodity traders from toilets the next day.  Oooh, that must have been one dirty night's sleep.  The way those old trains rock back and forth, it is hard to aim straight.  You must have been a sight and a smell the next day  :P

Kyle Harris

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2007, 05:57:36 PM »
Who was Howard Toomey?

wsmorrison

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2007, 06:04:37 PM »
We don't know for sure.  Some say he was a railroad engineer (there were lots of PRR execs at Merion Cricket Club) and others think he was a civil engineer.  We believe Toomey oversaw the construction of the courses to Flynn's plans and was a partner with Flynn in Toomey and Flynn Contracting Engineers.  

How much credit should be given to Toomey for specific features is impossible to establish.  There was one article in the Green Section Bulletin that was attributed to Toomey, but we know that Flynn wrote it.  We know that Toomey had a patent on a machine to plant Bent stolons and tried to corner the market on Bent, which failed.  We don't have a single photograph of Toomey nor any real information on him.  You ask, "Who was Howard Toomey?"  Honestly, we don't know.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 06:05:38 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2007, 06:08:08 PM »
We don't know for sure.  Some say he was a railroad engineer (there were lots of PRR execs at Merion Cricket Club) and others think he was a civil engineer.  We believe Toomey oversaw the construction of the courses to Flynn's plans and was a partner with Flynn in Toomey and Flynn Contracting Engineers.  

How much credit should be given to Toomey for specific features is impossible to establish.  There was one article in the Green Section Bulletin that was attributed to Toomey, but we know that Flynn wrote it.  We know that Toomey had a patent on a machine to plant Bent stolons and tried to corner the market on Bent, which failed.  We don't have a single photograph of Toomey nor any real information on him.  You ask, "Who was Howard Toomey?"  Honestly, we don't know.

I knew there was much mystery, but is it generally accurate that he carried out many of the engineering details of Flynn's work? Would drainage considerations fall into that category... like, for example, designing the two dams on Huntingdon Valley's property?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2007, 06:13:04 PM »
Mark,
Really, the only question I had for Jeff was the one I asked, i.e., that he as an architect isn't really being forced to contradict nature by environmental regulations. He is being asked to manage flows, those created by the construction of the course itself and/or the surrounding development, in a way that does the least harm downstream.
I don't see any harm in that, and from an architect's standpoint, compliance adds a layer of protection.

As for trying to sell a 750k drainage plan, well, good luck!  :o
I'm not being sarcastic, but if an owner made that investment he would need to earn an extra $85,000 during his season(six months, and only 3 of those at peak in the NE) to service a 15 yr. note at 8% int , before depreciation and any rain days 'saved'. That's a lot of extra rounds, around 2,450 per season @ $35.00. So basically, around here that means you'll need to increase your business between 5 and to 10% the first year, and then maintain that increase,  just to stay even.  
 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 06:14:40 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark_Fine

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2007, 06:55:06 PM »
Jim Kennedy,
Sorry I meant JES referring to his question about HV.  Regarding the $750K, yes that is a lot of money but actually I've seen numbers much higher especially when you get into sand capping fairways, etc.  In the case of this particular project, I think the owner knows he needs to do the work if he wants a playable golf course.  Fortunately in this case, surrounding real estate should cover the cost but it is still a tough expense to accept when he also has to do bunkers, tees and so on.  If he sells one lot, he'll have enough to pay for the drainage and much of the rest of the work as well.  Permit issues need to get resolved.    

Bill Brightly

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2007, 07:24:26 PM »
Mark,

I have EXACTLY the story you are looking for! I became Greens Chair 3 years ago, right after a summer of great rains in northeast, where we lost about 25 golf days, and had about 25 other "cart restricted" days... Seniors on the warpath, DEMANDING carts paths, saying Superintendent too protective of the golf course, etc, etc.

I take over the committee, and our first order of business was to consider adding a continuous cart path so carts can always go out...

This was KILLING me, I hated the idea of a path, but also felt guilty that most of the seniors who had to ride were disaffected, (including my PARENTS and all of their friends....)

But before we went to the board with a new cart path plan, we asked for a year to try drainage. We went after all the wettest areas, where carts could not go when it rained.

Took 3 winters, but we got all the wet spots, and lost VERY few days to wet conditions. The seniors were thrilled, (they think I talked some sense into the super's decision making process on course closings...I did NOT! the course just drained better!)

I recommend drainage work to everyone, even those who would like to remove cart paths but are afraid!
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 07:46:37 PM by Bill Brightly »

Mark_Fine

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Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2007, 07:32:27 PM »
Bill,
Those are the kind of stories we're looking for.  Thanks for posting.  Hope it gets those contemplating similar decisons thinking.  I might contact you in the future about your experience to share with others.  
Mark
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 07:34:04 PM by Mark_Fine »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Never underestimate it!
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2007, 07:39:55 PM »
sure, Mark. We also did the XGD green drainage, which is UNBELIEVABLE, but not really part of your initial question.

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