Massacre at Barona Creek

[Ken Moum]

Although I haven't played it, I know that Barona gets a lot of love by the people here who have.

In the photos I've seen it looks like a course I'd love.

So... What do you all think of the massacre that it suffered yesterday at the hands of the Nationwide Tour?

One 60, two 63s, etc., etc.

http://www.pgatour.com/leaderboards/current/h045/index.html

The leader averaged 294 (34th in the field), hit 71% of the fairways and 16 greens.

Is there a "reasonable" golf course or setup that can stand up to today's pros?

Ken

[John Kavanaugh]

The stupid Nationwide tour softens up courses so the idiot golf fan can see birdies.

[Michael Dugger]

Amen, John.

[JESII]

I wonder if they played ball-in-hand because of the fires in the vicinity last week...

[Mike Benham]

Gee, I thought JakaB would jump all over kmoum for his non-PC subject ...

Barona is being discussed, loosely, HERE[/i]

[Pete Lavallee]

Is there a "reasonable" golf course or setup that can stand up to today's pros?

Ken

We could give them poor quality putting greens, stimping at a 5, lets see them make some putt then!

The leader made a boatload  putts, OK he had a new toy straight from the Scotty Cameron Studio in nearby San Marcos but he did admit to a misread on the short 14th that could have yeilded a 59. But these are some of the smoothest, truest rtolling greens in the State of Cal. Why, 0% poa annua; the Super, Sandy Clarke, has a team of assistants digging it out of the greens and fringes with pen knives. It's the only way to keep it out. And because of their actions you get some awesome putting surfaces and low scores. Lack of recent play by idiot gamblers who refuse to fix their ball marks helps out too.

[Brent Hutto]

I did see a couple of those 40-footers that people made on the TV highlights and it Pete's right. It's amazing how true and smooth a ball can roll for miles and miles and track straight into the cup. For somebody who's going low, those greens have to be worth an extra stroke or two versus the usual Tour greens.

[John Kavanaugh]

I hate everything about the Nationwide tour.  Every year they go to well respected courses and set them up in a manner to ridicule the architecture so some boob tube rube can think those guys are good.  It makes zero sense that better scores are shot on the Nationwide than the PGA tours.  It stinks and smells of bifurcation.

[Ken Moum]

Gee, I thought JakaB would jump all over kmoum for his non-PC subject ...

It was actually supposed to be a reference to Dick Schaap's "Massacre at Winged Foot."  

Ken

[Pete Lavallee]

John,

You've played Barona, what have they done to make it easier?

[Mike Benham]

Watch the telecast ... the course is fine and as noted, the only issue is that the greens are a bit on the slow and soft side but rolling very smooth.  The players did note that the rough is down a little ...

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

You've played Barona, what have they done to make it easier?

Smoke and mirrors.  I don't know how or why the Nationwide goes so low.  I just know I don't like it.

[PThomas]

So I ask:  why in God's green earth are they still playing golf when the playoffs are over?

Better yet, why is nobody in the press asking this simple question.  Playing after the playoffs is antithetical to the concept of playoffs.

WTFIT?

Say what you will about the rigged scoring at Nationwide events, but at least they do one thing right:  their playoff is the end -- the way it should be.  You at least gotta give them that.

maybe Finchem can call the post playoff events the "PGA Tour's consolation Bracket sponsored by (fill in a corporate sponsor here)"

seriously, you make a good point....wonder how the sponsors of these events feel...i watched 5 minutes of highlights yesterday and don't think I saw 100 spectators total!

[Pete Lavallee]

Smoke and mirrors.  I don't know how or why the Nationwide goes so low.  I just know I don't like it.

Here I thought you were a closet genious, now I'm calling Bullsh*t! You make an outageous claim and can't even try to back it up? Is this just a case of penis envy? I'll never take you to church again!

[John Kavanaugh]

Smoke and mirrors.  I don't know how or why the Nationwide goes so low.  I just know I don't like it.

Here I thought you were a closet genious, now I'm calling Bullsh*t! You make an outageous claim and can't even try to back it up? Is this just a case of penis envy? I'll never take you to church again!

I don't think it is outrageous at all to claim that the Nationwide has become adept at making their players appear to be better than they are by tinkering with the courses.  The evidence will show a larger number of 60's being shot on a second rate tour.  I believe a 60 was even shot at The Pete Dye Golf Club which might have cost that course millions in revenue.  It is a self serving practice that I don't think many of the hosts of Nationwide events quite grasp.

[Pete Lavallee]

You didn't answer my question: How did the Nationwide Tour make Barona easier? Very simple, just one example will sate me before  go to watch them tear the place apart. Can you come up with one example?

[John Kavanaugh]

You didn't answer my question: How did the Nationwide Tour make Barona easier? Very simple, just one example will sate me before  go to watch them tear the place apart. Can you come up with one example?

I have not been there or watched the tournament on tv.  When I did see how far under the players were I had to check my calendar to make sure it was still Thursday.  I have started a thread on this subject in a blatant attempt to have someone else prove me correct.

[Rick Shefchik]

"It stinks and smells of bifurcation."

Stinks and smells?  That must be really pungent...

I'll tell you what I don't like, John.

I went to the PGA Tour website.  They had their playoffs a month ago, and there's a section congratulating Tiger for winning the playoffs.

So I ask:  why in God's green earth are they still playing golf when the playoffs are over?

Better yet, why is nobody in the press asking this simple question.  Playing after the playoffs is antithetical to the concept of playoffs.  It's just soooo stupid, I can't even take the Tour seriously anymore.  If they lie to me about something as blatantly obvious as this, what else are they lying to me about?  

Say what you will about the rigged scoring at Nationwide events, but at least they do one thing right:  their playoff is the end -- the way it should be.  You at least gotta give them that.

They're still playing baseball in Arizona, and they'll be playing all winter in Mexico, Cuba, and the rest of the Carribean.

It's just not the Major Leagues.

That's what I think of this Fall Finish, or whatever they're calling it. It's a notch below the real PGA, and a notch above the Nationside. Just another bunch of guys playing for their jobs.

[Adam Clayman]

Shiv, Your rant about the finality of playoffs only highlights your mental conditioning, gamewise.

This is absolutely the BEST TIME of year to chase whitey.

What self respecting golfer would be watching it? (regularly)

[Ken Moum]

John,

You've played Barona, what have they done to make it easier?

I don't believe they do anything to make Nationwide courses easier. They may, however, do significantly less to make them harder.

IOW, a PGA Tour event involves months of preparation getting the course to the fine edge required to resist scoring.

The Nationwide courses appear to be somewhat more like they'd be for normal play. Now, I haven't talked to any superintendents about the preparation, so this is speculation based on what you can see on TV.

I know that if I was the owner of a resort course like Barona, I wouldn't be willing to go to extreme lengths to toughen it up for a Nationwide event.

But this is a course that has a rating of 75.8 at 7323, and they claim to be playing it at 7500. The greens are being cut at .110". The only "weakness" would be the rough at 1.75"


Remember, the Nationwide guys often are LONGER than the PGA Tour, and they aren't playing on as firm and fast fairways.

If you're interested, look at
 http://www.gcsaa.org/news/TournamentFactSheetsDetails.aspx?courseID=477&eventID=183&selectedYear=2007

[Matt_Cohn]

I don't know why anybody thinks it's "easy" out there!

Just repeating from my post on the other thread, the course is 7,400 yards and rated 75.8 as a par 71.

It might not be Firestone, but it's a very challenging course. I'm really just awed by the scores they're shooting.

[George Pazin]

John, I'm really not trying to be a nitpicker here, this is an honest question:

Do you think it could simply be that for Nationwide events, the course is setup much closer to normal play, while for PGA Tour events, the Tour makes it much tougher? In other words, they aren't consciously making the Nationwide events easier, it just works out that way.

I don't know the answer at all, and obviously have no first hand knowledge, I'm just wondering if there's a different explanation.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm with Pete...I'm still waiting to see from JK how the Nationwide has softened the course.

1.75 inches of rough does seem to be pretty tame, by the standards that these guys can play, so I'm with George on that one.  If the Nationwide insisted on this, then that would be a reason I suppose to explain the lower scores.  However if the greens really are as good as others are claiming then that could be a good explanation as well.  As putting is the best part of my game, I know I usually score a lot better on true rolling greens.

[John Kavanaugh]

John, I'm really not trying to be a nitpicker here, this is an honest question:

Do you think it could simply be that for Nationwide events, the course is setup much closer to normal play, while for PGA Tour events, the Tour makes it much tougher? In other words, they aren't consciously making the Nationwide events easier, it just works out that way.

I don't know the answer at all, and obviously have no first hand knowledge, I'm just wondering if there's a different explanation.

George,

Do you agree that it is vital for the success of the Nationwide tour that the player appear to be highly talented golfers?  How can you possibly explain that the Nationwide guys shoot lower scores than the guys in the show?  Does the Nationwide have up front people that visit a course weeks before the event?  This is not the same as a pitcher that has a low era in the minor leagues.  Golf is golf unless you have a bifurcation of set up.

[George Pazin]

Actually, I think I agree with you that there is a bifurcation in setup. I just don't think it's to try to showcase the Nationwide Tour, I think it's simply that the PGA Tour puts more time and money into course setups on the big tour, as opposed to the Nationwide Tour.

I don't think there's much the PGA Tour can do to affect the success of Nationwide Tour one way or the other. I'd be surprised if it could survive on its own, at least not anywhere near the level that it currently is. It's a farm system for the big tour, nothing more, nothing less. The golfers are tremendous relative to 99.99% of the golf population, but the majority don't have what it takes to succeed at the highest level, at least not yet.

I still enjoy watching it from time to time, especially if they're playing somewhere interesting.