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Brian Cenci

The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« on: November 01, 2007, 09:29:38 AM »
This past summer I finished playing that last of what I would term the relatively unknown private clubs in Michigan toward the western portions of the state.  I say relatively unknown because in the general world of golf (weekend player, occasional reader of Golf Digest, etc.) nobody's heard of them (excluding most on this site).

The four clubs I'm speaking of are: The Kingsley Club, Wuskowhan Players Club, Dunes Club and Lost Dunes Club.

What are your opinions collectively on these clubs?  Ten rounds, how do you split them up?




Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2007, 09:38:51 AM »
Brian,
  Kingsley Club -4 (Always a treat and worth the drive)
  Wuskowhan   -2 (Great conditioning on an empty course)
  Lost Dunes    -2 (I don't need a healthy diet of the greens)
  The Dunes     -2 (Not a big fan of 9 holers)

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tom Roewer

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 10:04:54 AM »
Should Belvedere Golf Club belong on thislist?  IMO  -- YES

tlavin

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2007, 10:25:59 AM »
I've played Lost Dunes about ten times and I haven't played Kingsley or Wuskowan and I'm a member of the Dunes Club and therefore have an inherent bias, but I'll still try to offer some commentary on Lost Dunes and Dunes.

Lost Dunes is a terrific course on an interesting piece of property that has the unfortunate circumstance of being interrupted by an interstate highway.  Fortunately, Tom Doak still managed to come up with an inventive routing, so the golf course feels like one, integral piece.  It is easy, I suppose, to criticize the putting surfaces, because a knee-jerk reaction is that they are tough and/or quirky to the point of being silly, but the more times one plays the course, you begin to realize that the greens have safe and unsafe areas to hit to.  With all of the option-slobs on this site, one would think that this type of design would be appealing.  To me, the greens are phantasmagoric, with deceptive slopes and furrows, humps and bumps.  If you're in the wrong quadrant, you surely can four-putt, but if you put the ball on the proper part of the green, the surfaces are quite manageable indeed.

As for the Dunes Club, it's one of my favorite places on the planet.  Much of this is due to the simple vibe of the place.  You warm up on a mat and hit to a screen.  The putting green is best used after golf and after a few heinekens, since it's just plain wacky.  The clubhouse is about 2000 square feet and is as simple as it gets.  You can't get a cart unless you're Mike Ditka or somebody who is missing a lower appendage.  

As for the golf course, it is scenic, bucolic and very demanding.  You might call it a poor man's Pine Valley, but then you have to remember that Mike Keiser, no poor man, is the owner.  It is reminiscent of the sort of scruffy dunescape that is characteristic of the pictures I've seen of Pine Valley, but beyond that, I can't comment.  I can say that each and every one of the nine holes is simply beautiful and seriously difficult if you don't keep the ball in play.  The heather and the soft, natural sand in the hazards will jump up and beat you senseless.  There is a wonderful variety of landforms and elevation changes to keep visual interest and the greens are subtle, sinister and beguiling.

It is only a nine-hole course, so no matter what you do with alternate tees and newly cut holes, you're playing the same hole twice if you're playing 18.  In that respect it is a little difficult to compare Dunes Club to any 18-hole course, but in other respects, there are very few courses that can compare to the charms of this one.

Mike Keiser and Dick Nugent collaborated quite nicely and ingeniously on this little gem of a golf course.  If you're in the neighborhood and can get on, you'll never regret your time there.

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2007, 11:19:05 AM »
Should Belvedere Golf Club belong on thislist?  IMO  -- YES

Tom:

Is Belvedere no longer open to the public? It's been 20 years since I've been there.

Regarding the other 4, I'd play them:

4 - Kingsley
3 - Lost Dunes
3 - Dunes

Andy Troeger

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2007, 10:11:23 AM »
I did not see this originally but will comment having played all four courses. Also, I'm pretty sure Belvedere is still public (or semi-private accepting public tee times).

1. Kingsley Club (5 rounds)--this course has been discussed significantly on GCA and is as good as advertised in my opinion. Great variety of holes and tons of fun. I played this one a day after Crystal Downs and wasn't sure at first whether I had a preference between the two. Five of 10 rounds here only because of the strength of the other contenders.

2. Lost Dunes (3 rounds)--only played this one once but really a good design that has continued to grow on me since I played it if that makes sense. The greens are wild but the routing itself is excellent especially considering the challenge of the highway. The walk under the bridge is inevitable, and otherwise the course is a blast to play.

3. Dunes Club (2 rounds)--Terry summed this one up pretty well. Its a great experience, although its very much placement/position golf with few risks that are worth the rewards which puts it behind the other two for my tastes. That said, its very good in its own right.

4. Wuskowhan (0 rounds)--Wuskowhan isn't a bad course by any means although with the 23 forced carries (or however many there are) makes it very difficult for a higher handicap without being that taxing for the better player. Its immaculate and in a beautiful setting and taken individually has many fine holes. The greens compared to Lost Dunes and Kingsley are very level, and the site does not have the movement of the others either. Its a good golf course but not in the league of the other three IMO.


Brian,
Since you started the thread would be curious what you thought of the four? How do they compare to the other Michigan courses you've played since I know you're pretty well traveled on the public side already.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 10:12:34 AM by Andy Troeger »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2007, 12:16:29 PM »
Not that you need more that are along Lake MI, but Muskegon CC is a very good old (mostly still) Ross course that is worth the trip. Ask about the former par 6, the tee and green are still in play, and imagine what the practice green would have been like when they were playing to it over that hill.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2007, 12:45:01 PM »
Grand Haven CC is a private club but I'm pretty sure the public can get on.

I played this fall with the owner and had a great time.  They're redoing a bunch of holes (i.e. just did away with the old 10th and built a new one after 13 or 14) and really improving the course.

It's tree lined but on sandy soil.  So in a few places they've cleared land to bring back some huge traps.  Very pretty, tranquil place.

The staff was great, great clubhouse and fun golf course on sandy soil.  



We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2007, 01:32:51 PM »
Jason, Grand Haven is semiprivate.  My cousin has been a member for years but the public can just walk on.  It is a wonderful Bruce Matthews course.  He lived nearby and tinkered with it for years.
It is a bit claustrophobic but great fun.

I have not played the Dunes but have played the other three.  they are so different that it is hard to pick but here goes.
Kingsley 5
Lost Dunes 3
Wuskowhan  2
I like them all but Kingsley is the most fun even with the ninth green that I have yet to hit and still don't know how to play.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Paul Payne

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2007, 01:48:21 PM »
Two that I have played that are good are Muskegon CC which was mentioned earlier, an old Ross course. I'm not sure how much of that has changed. Also Blythfield CC near Holland. It is an old Langford and Moreau course that is presumably much like it was originally.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 02:17:25 PM »
Actually, Blythfield is on the north side of Grand Rapids. Not much of L&M is left there. If you know L&M work, it is good fun to wander around there and visualize what used to exist.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Nathaniel Amrine

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2007, 03:41:43 PM »
I've had the pleasure of working at Grand Haven Golf Club for the past two years and can tell you that it is quietly making headway towards returning to Michigan's elite. The ownership, the Rooney family, purchased the course in shambles and has worked diligently with the Matthews family to restore the course to it's original quality.

As said above, it as a tranquil course with incredible greens. Most impressively, it requires accuracy off the tee that most modern courses do not dare touch because of the need to appeal to all golfers. GHGC has alot of trees! Beautiful trees!

Several years ago Golf Digest (for what it's worth) ranked it in the top 50 public courses for 11 consecutive years but it fell through the cracks (both literally and financially) during the golf boom of the 90's.

Treat yourself to a round over there when the summer rolls around. You won't be disappointed. If you would like more information let me know, I have a hundred or so pictures of the layout/design.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 03:42:28 PM by Nathaniel Amrine »

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2007, 04:25:26 PM »
Ok, I played at Grand Haven 2 years ago..At that time, it was the worst golf course we played in our 2 lengthy MI trips.  In  my opinion, it needed a huge amount of tree removal to make the course remotely good.  It was pretty but absolutely the narrowest golf course I have ever seen...Nathaniel, how wide are the corridors between the overhanging limbs on some of the holes...20-25 yards....Maybe just not my cup of tea.  There sure are a whole lot of MI golf courses that I would go to first.  Can't see where I would return to GH unless someone can convince me they have removed 10000 or more trees and opened up some playable angles.

Bart

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2007, 04:40:10 PM »
Lost Dunes is very quirky, but probably all Doak had to work with given the nearby highway. The Dunes was a treat to play the one opportunity I had. I thought it was one of the hardest to find for starters and when I did find it my SUV almost didn't fit through the small hole in the fence. The course is a minimalist gem but hardly a pushover. The woods are some the scruffiest thickets you will encounter when not deer hunting. The caddies are great and as Terry Lavin mentioned the Clubhouse is all you need. Great atmosphere for a memorable day!

Paul Payne

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2007, 06:28:17 PM »
Ralph,

I am curious about Blythefield. I was there once while on business. The only other L&M course I have played is Lawsonia which I have played 5 times.

The folks at Blythefield seem to go out of there way to tell you that their course is pretty much still the original. There were some differences I noticed between Lawsonia and Blythefield but I would not know enough about L&M work to know what might have been changed.

I did notice that there were very few of the punishing berms backing the fairway bunkers like at Lawsonia. I also noticed that the greens in general were a lot more tame than Lawsonia and there were very few that had those slopes that drop off the sides.  

What kinds of changes have occurred there over the years?


C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2007, 07:11:43 PM »
Being from the Chicago area, I'm biased to Dunes Club and Lost Dunes, if only for the relatively very short drive.  Both make a great 27 hole trip.  

The first time I played Lost Dunes I cursed Tom Doak all the way around for those greens.  A year later, when I played it again with a little course knowledge I had a much different experience.  Hitting the ball really well for myself, I was able to hit it in the right spots and shot an effortless 74.  Another member of my group playing it for the first time was doing the cursing.  Definitely a course who's charm you learn the 2nd time around.  At least it was for me.  

Dunes Club for the afternoon round is great.  Bucolic is the understatement of the day.  Driving through the hole in the fence you don't know if you're pulling up to a private club, nudist colony or Michael Myers Campground.  Luckily you're getting the former.  Not much more than a bucket of "club cheese" waiting for you at noon and an eager caddy.  I only know Pine Valley from its pictures as well, but I can certainly see where comparisons are made from the terrain.  Even after blitzing Lost Dunes in the morning, my scorecard both times I played Dunes Club looked like Al Czervik's after 9.  

CPS

Brian Cenci

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2007, 09:24:27 PM »
I did not see this originally but will comment having played all four courses. Also, I'm pretty sure Belvedere is still public (or semi-private accepting public tee times).

1. Kingsley Club (5 rounds)--this course has been discussed significantly on GCA and is as good as advertised in my opinion. Great variety of holes and tons of fun. I played this one a day after Crystal Downs and wasn't sure at first whether I had a preference between the two. Five of 10 rounds here only because of the strength of the other contenders.

2. Lost Dunes (3 rounds)--only played this one once but really a good design that has continued to grow on me since I played it if that makes sense. The greens are wild but the routing itself is excellent especially considering the challenge of the highway. The walk under the bridge is inevitable, and otherwise the course is a blast to play.

3. Dunes Club (2 rounds)--Terry summed this one up pretty well. Its a great experience, although its very much placement/position golf with few risks that are worth the rewards which puts it behind the other two for my tastes. That said, its very good in its own right.

4. Wuskowhan (0 rounds)--Wuskowhan isn't a bad course by any means although with the 23 forced carries (or however many there are) makes it very difficult for a higher handicap without being that taxing for the better player. Its immaculate and in a beautiful setting and taken individually has many fine holes. The greens compared to Lost Dunes and Kingsley are very level, and the site does not have the movement of the others either. Its a good golf course but not in the league of the other three IMO.


Brian,
Since you started the thread would be curious what you thought of the four? How do they compare to the other Michigan courses you've played since I know you're pretty well traveled on the public side already.

I really think Lost Dunes is the best of the bunch w/ Dunes Club just behind it.  I like Kingsley but it's a little quirky with the greens sometimes.  If I had ten rounds I'd go;

4-Lost Dunes
3-Dunes Club
2.5-Kingsley Club
0.5-Wuskowhan

As far as in the state...they're all private but I think Arcadia and Grewalls are a little better than all four, but that's it for the public.

-Brian

Andy Troeger

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2007, 12:17:08 AM »
Brian,
Thanks for the responses. I have Arcadia Bluffs behind Kingsley and Lost Dunes but ahead of Dunes Club and Wuskowhan. Kind of splitting hairs at that point. Point O'Woods, while arguably better known due to hosting the Western Am annually, also would be right around the same level as Lost Dunes, I've gotten to the point of changing my mind as to which one I like better.

I just wish Greywalls was easier to get to!

Brian Cenci

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2007, 12:43:32 AM »
Andy,
    Pointe O' Woods I haven't played...which I've played every "good" Michigan course but that one, Radrick Farms & The U of M course...other than those 3 I've played all the Michigan courses I've wanted to...and I'll get to those next year.

I am a big fan of Lost Dunes and Dunes club...as well as Kingsley, the only drawback from Kingsley (and I may think this because I worked at Crystal Downs for 6 years) is that it tries too hard to be like Crystal Downs with some of its "local knowledge" type shots that it forces you to play...and in some spots the greens are over the top.  I'm a big fan of Arcadia & Greywalls...to me they're 2,3 in the state behind only Crystal Downs.  Greywalls is so unique I don't think people appreciate some of those holes out there.  Arcadia is a solid solid course....I've said it 100 times, u take Arcadia and strip away who designed it and it can hold its own with all 3 Bandon courses.

-Brian

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2007, 10:32:57 AM »
Arcadia is a solid solid course....I've said it 100 times, u take Arcadia and strip away who designed it and it can hold its own with all 3 Bandon courses.

-Brian

Brian,

This seems both condenscending and bold.  Why is Warren Henderson's name on Arcadia a "drawback?"

You also state you don't like the shots you are forced to hit at Kingsley requiring too much local knowledge.  While Crystal Downs is my favorite course, I can recall at least eight potential shots requiring quite a bit of local knowledge.  Is one getting a pass because after eight years you had the knowledge you needed to play the course appropriately?

Ken

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2007, 11:24:11 AM »
Brian is insinuating that there is architect bias, that if Doak or Coore/Crenshaw or DeVries had built it, the collective GCA opinion would be higher.  Arcadia Bluffs is ranked very highly by Golfweek and especially Golf Digest.  Arcadia was recently discussed at length, so I won't restate my sentiments.

I see examples of architect bias here at GCA.  I think there are a number of bias factors which regularly impact course evaluation, and no matter how smart you are, these biases affect one's opinion.  However, I like what I like; try to argue with that!

Among the original courses listed in this thread, I've only played Kingsley, which I like very much, but I agree that is quite severe around some of the greens.  Very nice, private place to play.  I'd sure like to play The Dunes and Lost Dunes someday.

kconway

Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2007, 11:33:09 AM »
I would rate my michigan course as follows:

1) Dunes Club
2) Lost Dunes
3) Arcadia Bluffs

I found the Dunes Club was a unique expererience.  The esetting is great; the ambience was perfect for the place; the design and challenge from the different was top notch.

I felt Lost Dunes hads many good/very good holes, but suffers from the impact of the highway as well as what i thought was a weakish close.

Aracdia Bluffs has many cool holes and a great setting; but i thought it totally lack any ambience.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2007, 12:47:19 PM »
Kelly,
   Do you think that AB lacks ambiance because
1. Its public
2. Its less than 10 years old and with the way the ratings are set up, its only been a GD Top 100 for les than 5 years. Therefore, lesser known...?
3. Or as mentioned, lacks a supposed, big name architect? I think that we will be hearing more of Warren Henderson's work in the future. Im glad that they have credited him with the design. Smith was just a name.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2007, 12:59:50 PM »
Arcadia Bluffs is an outstanding golf course.  Although, I hate that it is outstanding for 6 hours per round.  In a perfect world a 4 hour round, caddies and one of their great turkey sandwiches would make a great day.  Wish they could get a handle on pace of play.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The relatively "unknown" private clubs in Michigan
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2007, 01:15:51 PM »
This might be off base, but would there be any possibility that the pace at Arcadia compared to the other clubs listed has to do with marketing?

Take Kingsley, Lost Dunes, or The Dunes.....everything they promote is the quality golf and the priority of golf. Arcadia, on the other hand, is always pushing the views and the drama.

Maybe the golfers who are slow playing Arcadia are exactly what the marketing targeted....even if unintentional.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017