[Gib_Papazian]

Adrian,

200 pounds to play Troon? Are you daft? I see that you are English, which I normally associate with erudite, insightful people. I think the ale must have clouded your judgment more than the wind my eyes.

#17 is the quintessential example of the deficiencies of this over-rated, expensive yawn. Since the wind invariably is blasting at hurricane force - into the teeth all the way from the 11th tee - the penultimate insult is a smash driver from 210 yards to a vapid disc (disk?) with all the charm and visual interest of Prince Charles with that cleaning woman on his arm.

My calculation shows it costs 11.11 pounds to play each hole at Troon. That is roughly $24 American, correct? More than $400 to play eighteen holes? Let's put it in perspective: I can travel thousands of miles across the pond - including egregious airfare - to pay $425 at Troon, which if it were anywhere but in Scotland would be bulldozed and turned into a housing tract, or I can drive two hours and pay less money to tee it up at Pebble Beach.

Do they teach "Cost-Benefit Analysis" at Cambridge?

The initial question was whether there are any truly "bad" courses in Scotland, and in truth I do not see Troon falling into that category.

That stated, someone mentioned the infamous "Doak Scale" and the  assignment of the dreaded squadoosh, which is normally reserved for courses where ridiculous amounts of money were spent to create something akin to the average Rees Jones abomination.

However, in the interest of elastic interpretation of the facts and general inclusion of anything that supports my meandering logic, I think we can slightly modify the Doak Scale to identify golf courses where a ridiculous expenditure of green fees is exchanged for a poorly conceived architectural disappointment followed by clubhouse bartenders who pour weak drinks with cheap booze in the company of nasty old men still pissed that American soldiers were humping their women while fighting back the Nazis.  

Or, you can play 36 at Prestwick and save yourself the grief of reading my idle ranting.

[Tom Huckaby]

Gib:

I used to think as you did about Troon; in fact, having been forced by Monty's father to change into a coat and tie just so we could ring the doorbell again, so we could step two feet inside and confirm our tee times and pay our fees (we had no attention of going into the clubhouse), my vitriol was at one point a match for yours.  Well, check that, you corner the market on vitriol.  But let's just say I hated the place, and Evan Fleisher can attest to this as he and I battled quite a bit about it way back when.

Then a few years ago I went back... and well.. it must have been the luck of the draw because we were treated very warmly and had a great day all around.  Oh yes, we were raped financially - the cost is way way way too high for sure - but all of us just decided that the money was spent, it wasn't coming back, we weren't playing anywhere else that day, so we just decided to enjoy it... and enjoy it we did.  The Portland was fun, the lunch was pretty damn good, then the Championship course looked a hell of a lot better in a mood of feeling welcomed rather than being spit on.  We were then invited into the members' bar, and that was pretty darn cool.  As for the course, the Postage Stamp is indeed one of those holes one must see... and the holes surrounding it are pretty damn good too.  I'd agree the slog in from 11 is nothing all that special.. but 18 is good fun as one hits into the green set hard against those windows from whence the glares come.  All in all after that outing I no longer felt any vitriol for Troon; in fact in a perfect world of unlimited time and money, I'd go back for sure.

In any case I do love it that the one course I've railed against in my years here at GCA - THE RANCH - is now the standard by which awful courses are judged.  It does rather fit.

And both Troon courses are 1000 times better than that goat ranch.

TH

[Gib_Papazian]

I've just had a brilliant notion - now that we are on the subject of vitriol.

Why not have an unofficial GCA NorCal gathering at The Ranch? Perhaps a morning warm-up at Royal St. Los Lagos?

The Treehouse - if you think about it - is dedicated to opinion and criticism. What better two courses to lubricate and encourage post-round conversation?

I've written before about the importance of film makers seeing lots of terrible movies (Read: Heaven's Gate, My Dinner with Andre'), and following the same logic I think we can have a smashingly good time critiquing The Ranch.

I recall one day many years ago, you and I managing to untangle the routing at Coyote Creek Valley in five munutes on a cocktail napkin. Can you imagine the same conversation about The Ranch?

We can take over a private room at one of the local taverns, roll out  butcher paper on the table, issue each GCAer a pencil and let it rip. This promises to be the ultimate challenge of our collective creative intellects.

   

[jeffwarne]

My group and I were treated quite warmly at Troon.
I enjoyed the lunch and the Portland course as well.

Is Troon my favorite golf course? No, but it was quite good,and is in the Open rota,which meant a lot to some of my group.
(Typically Open courses and the more famous ones aren't my(or my group's) cup of tea as I/we prefer the adventure of more hidden gems)
There are certainly multiple THOUSANDS of courses on both sides of the pond that are far worse than Troon.

 Did those of you complaining about the price have it change from the time you made the booking?
For those of you who CHRONICALLY complain about the price of any course-the answer is simple-particularly if you don't like the course---Don't play.

At least in the British Isles access is available and the choice is yours as to whether or not you play.
How many would pay thousands to play Augusta, yet it has many detractors on this site. Just think of the complaints there'd be if the green fee was $2500.

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,

This falls into the category of "Fool me once, shame on you."

Troon is simply capitalizing on its inclusion in the Open Rota with egregious fees for a mediocre golf course.

Thus, I will agree and concede your point. But that does not mean I cannot express an opinion as to the relative value vs. other courses.

Western Gailes, just up the road, is 110 pounds including lunch for a superior golf course. If you are so inclined to give it another go, the cost is 160 for two rounds with lunch.

Since you and your coterie of traveling vagabonds are sufficiently evolved to eschew venues like Troon in favor of hidden beauty - far off the beaten path of Americans looking to notch another kill on their bag stand - then you must be able to grasp my venomous spew at having my wallet lightened by 400 pounds for the unexpected rare treat of playing a dog track while being treated as an unwelcome interloper.

If I am going to have my rectum rerouted for that much jing, I will return to Turnberry. Two magnificent courses, a hotel to die for and a brace of Swedish masseuses at the spa, waiting to work out the kinks in my aged back after battling the links.

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,

And in further response to your post, can you name me a golf course on either side of the pond worse than Troon for $425?

$350?

$200?

Don't think so.

[jeffwarne]

Gib,
I guess I didn't feel fooled.
Troon certainly doesn't draw rave reviews around here and I wasn't really dying to play it.

However, when breaking the cost per day down to travel to Scotland, stay, eat, etc. (to say nothing of the opportunity cost of not working) ANY course over there could be $400-600 per day, so I just didn't get that worked up about 90 more pounds at Troon which included lunch and an additional round on The Portland, which I enjoyed as well.

I enjoyed Western Gailles, but not much more than Troon, and was quite disappointed that we had 4 twoballs of members  in a row play through us on the front nine while there were at least 8 Swedish tourist foursomes in front of us all backed up. (eventually all 4 twoballs played through all 8 fourballs-which added a good hour to our round)
If you are going to finance your club via visitor green fees, at least schedule the guest 4 ball and 2 ball member play in the proper sequence.

Anyway situations like I experienced at WG and you did at Troon rarely happen at clubs off the beaten path where the visitor interest is low (along with the price) and visitors are generally greeted more warmly.
I recently was in Devon and Cornwall and spent 1/2 the money of a typical UK itinerary on great courses and was greeted extremely graciously everywhere.

[Brent Hutto]

Gib,

With the exchange rate at US$2.06/GBP and rising it's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel to downgrade UK golf courses for being expensive compared to American ones, don't you think?

Why not compare Andrew Mitchell taking some of his UK pounds down to Troon with you or I taking some US dollars over to Augusta National. Oh, wait a minute. I guess Augusta National won't let us play no matter how many dollars are on offer...

[Tom Huckaby]

I've just had a brilliant notion - now that we are on the subject of vitriol.

Why not have an unofficial GCA NorCal gathering at The Ranch? Perhaps a morning warm-up at Royal St. Los Lagos?

The Treehouse - if you think about it - is dedicated to opinion and criticism. What better two courses to lubricate and encourage post-round conversation?

I've written before about the importance of film makers seeing lots of terrible movies (Read: Heaven's Gate, My Dinner with Andre'), and following the same logic I think we can have a smashingly good time critiquing The Ranch.

I recall one day many years ago, you and I managing to untangle the routing at Coyote Creek Valley in five munutes on a cocktail napkin. Can you imagine the same conversation about The Ranch?

We can take over a private room at one of the local taverns, roll out  butcher paper on the table, issue each GCAer a pencil and let it rip. This promises to be the ultimate challenge of our collective creative intellects.

   

That sounds like a hell of a good time!
I do tend to like Los Lagos though... oh, I patently hate the dumbass routing that makes you cross the stupid wetlands twice, when just making the two non-descript par threes on the north part of that side holes 8 and 9 would mean you only cross once... but other than that, I do enjoy the course.  It would make a good warmup for THE RANCH in any case.

We have to invite all the militant walkers and see how they do there, too... Us cartballers will have at least two hours of drinking time as we wait for them to stagger in.

You know, in a weird way, this has all the makings of a great incarnation of THE KING'S PUTTER. Hmmmm....

By the way, we're still waiting for Tommy's blessing about that.  No word from the south....

TH

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

And in further response to your post, can you name me a golf course on either side of the pond worse than Troon for $425?

$350?

$200?

Don't think so.

Gib,
Don't you need to back out the cost of The Portland?
wouldn't 50-60 pounds be reasonable?
and lunch? 20 pounds?
Now we're at $265

yes I can
almost any course in Vegas,
many course in AZ at peak
Doral
Almost any high end course in the Caribean
Cabo
etc.

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen,

You can play around with the math all you like, the fact remains that no green fee reduction is going to get me to approve of Troon. Even for free. I would rather just play the Portland and start driving south; there is not much more to state than that.

As for relative cost, I would rather play Bali Hai (at $350) in the sunshine with an umbrella in my cocktail than submit to another beating at Troon. If I am going to whipped by an ugly Dominatrix, I would rather it be Carnoustie, which at least has brains to go with cellulite riddled butt cheeks.

Huckster,

I have evidence Tommy is alive. He rang on Sunday night in a snit about my failure to return his call. Wendy Parker (of Bernhardt fame) and the Redhead were standing in the kitchen, so thinking quickly I passed them the phone. The girls put a quick stop to his blustering. Naccarato is a sucker for women . . . . Maybe I ought to have Wendy promise to attend KP if Tommy will get going on the arrangements.  



 

[Tom Huckaby]

Gib:

That's good to hear.  I was beginning to wonder.... And hey, whatever it takes!  I just want to play in this event in 2008, and if it's gonna happen, we need to start planning NOW.

TH

[Matthew Hunt]

Yeah, there are bad ones--at least one I can attest to.  What was even worse is that the R&A used it as the second course for their Amateur Championship

The second course for the '99 Amateur at Royal County Down was a place called Kilkeel (I think I spelled it correctly).  The story I heard was that it was a 9 hole course that someone felt obliged to jam 9 more holes onto--an absolute piece of crap.

One hole was an 80 degree dogleg left.  Through the fairway was a hazard that continued all along the right side of a fairway that fell away from you as the hole went up a steep hill to the left.

Forest of spindly, sick looking trees protected the inside of the hole.  Second shot was blind and uphill with the hazard just off the right edge of the green.  

Stategic choices were:
1.  Say "to hell with it" and try to drive up and over the trees near the green  (I think the hole was 360 yards or so and less if you could cut the dogleg)
2.  Try and hook a 2-4 iron around the corner knowing that straight was in the hazard and hope to give yourself a wedge into the green.
3.  Two 7 irons

AWFUL.

For a while I thought it was unfair since either the day before or after you had just played RCD and to experience this place within 24 hours of something as great as RCD could lead to some serious mental instability .

There were other bad holes but thankfully I can't remember them!

Lest anyone think I played bad and this is sour grapes, I did shoot 72 on tht course and manage to make match play that former marshyear--Kilkeel is a truly bad course in the British Isles

I was thinking about only this course (played the same time as you...) since I saw this thread last night.

Dreadful!

I wonder if Matthew Hunt ever goes down there...

Yes and I kind of like it...

It has a new greenkeeper which turned the former marsh into a very into a firm course as Irish parklands go. In reflection I think I may like the course because i've always shot well under my h'cap on a course where shotting on your h'cap will win you events.

The hole you describe is the 7th and its a joke, altought the members think its great . It can be fairly easy if played right, a lot of the better member of my golf club can dive it with a long iron.

[Kalen Braley]

Huck and Gib,

Maybe its just me, but even the Ranch doesn't look awful.  Preposterous maybe, or "what they hell were they thinking"

When I think Doak 0 I'm thinking Pruneridge or Springtown in Livermore?  Have you ever tried those?   They are gawd-awful.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:  I guess it depends on what you mean by awful.  Hell yes I've been to each of Pruneridge and Springtown, and to me, they each are decent for what they are supposed to be:  executive courses set up primarily for beginners, with no pretense and providing golf at a decent price.

Contrast that to THE RANCH, which has the gall to charge three figures... and caters really to no one other than masochists who want to tell their buddies they played a slope 150+ course.

I'll take Pruneridge and Springtown all day, thank you very much.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Huck,

I just re-visited the official criteria and gosh-dang I hate to admit it that you were right and I was wrong....not that its often that happens.....DAMN YOU!!!

The Ranch is a zero, and those other two are 1's.....

0-A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

1-A very basic golf course, with clear architectural malpractice and/or poor maintenance. Avoid even if you're desperate for a game.

[Sean_A]

I think I lean more toward Gib's assessment of Troon then away from it.  One tough slog coming back - not my cup of tea.  Where Gib goes well off the rails is concerning #8.  Great hole - probably the best short hole ever built - well its in for a shout at the title anyway.  

BTW biG - you can have Carnoustie.  In fact, I will trade you all the Open courses (except Sandwich of course) for Pennard, Brora, St Enodoc, North Berwick and Machrihanish.  Come to think of it, you can have Sandwich as well!

Ciao

[Gib_Papazian]

Sean,

You are obviously far too deep in the Watney's to realize that we agree 1000%. The Postage Stamp is brilliant - far beyond #7 at Pebble and even #13 at Spanish Bay (which gets no dap for reasons I can only chalk up to ignorance or bias against the golf course).

The rest of Troon you can keep - except #8, for visual balance and intimacy in an otherwise sociopathic run of abuse that only a bathhouse jockey with a taste for sandpaper condoms could possibly enjoy.

Ohmygawd, there I go talking smack and pissing off Matt Cohn again. I've been accused in the last week of being a megaphone for leftist dogma, right wing intolerance, Gay bashing and just plain being a jerk.

I plead guilty to all charges.  

I like Carnoustie BTW. Not every day. Like Venus Williams (an American Tennis Star), it has more vagina than I have Johnson by a long shot. I tamed the shrew in 1995, but I am half the man  and sportsman since then. Such are the slings and arrows of failed love, redemption and consequence at the hands of a woman who has scorned (sic).

Assigning me the moniker of "biG" is either a compliment or a backhanded swipe at my vociferous, vitriolic pontifications. Being quite familiar with cheeky British humor, my response is for you to "shut your festering gob you twit. . yadda yadda yadda, you snotty faced . . . . . etc."

Sadly, most Americans are so insular that we reduce everyone - including the English - to caricatures of something we saw on BBC America.

Be happy it was not Benny Hill  . . . . there is not enough hashish in Morocco to make me think that guy is funny.

[jeffwarne]

Sean,
You just named what may be my UK top 5 (I can only count Machrihanish if I get to play Dunaverty and Shiskine while I'm there)
I'd take any of those over Loch Lomond,Troon,Carnoustie, or Turnberry.
and I have so many left to play

[Sean_A]

Sean,

You are obviously far too deep in the Watney's to realize that we agree 1000%. The Postage Stamp is brilliant - far beyond #7 at Pebble and even #13 at Spanish Bay (which gets no dap for reasons I can only chalk up to ignorance or bias against the golf course).

The rest of Troon you can keep - except #8, for visual balance and intimacy in an otherwise sociopathic run of abuse that only a bathhouse jockey with a taste for sandpaper condoms could possibly enjoy.

Ohmygawd, there I go talking smack and pissing off Matt Cohn again. I've been accused in the last week of being a megaphone for leftist dogma, right wing intolerance, Gay bashing and just plain being a jerk.

I plead guilty to all charges.  

I like Carnoustie BTW. Not every day. Like Venus Williams (an American Tennis Star), it has more vagina than I have Johnson by a long shot. I tamed the shrew in 1995, but I am half the man  and sportsman since then. Such are the slings and arrows of failed love, redemption and consequence at the hands of a woman who has scorned (sic).

Assigning me the moniker of "biG" is either a compliment or a backhanded swipe at my vociferous, vitriolic pontifications. Being quite familiar with cheeky British humor, my response is for you to "shut your festering gob you twit. . yadda yadda yadda, you snotty faced . . . . . etc."

Sadly, most Americans are so insular that we reduce everyone - including the English - to caricatures of something we saw on BBC America.

Be happy it was not Benny Hill  . . . . there is not enough hashish in Morocco to make me think that guy is funny.

I think this post qualifies you as singularly larger than GCA.com (sorry JakaB).  Henceforth (and because you acknowledged the moniker), you will be biG in my eyes.  Sweet, ain't it?  As a Brit by choice, I carry some American baggage.  Included in this baggage is the old fashioned notion that sweet talk such as yours is usually reserved for face to face meetings.  Please consider this an invitation to in drop for a game of golf and a session down the pub.  

Watneys!  I think that is what the cheap bastards up north drank back in the Polyester and Me decades.  If I am to stand accused of excess drinking please let it be with Hook Norton.  

For future reference, I kindly request that you forward copies of the biG lexicon and dictionary.  I fear this may be the only way to interpret the following as a description of a brilliant hole.  

"Actually, #7,8 and 11 are not all that interesting - there are 1000 better holes in Scotland - they just seem decent by comparison to the rest."

Ciao

[Kevin Pallier]

And in further response to your post, can you name me a golf course on either side of the pond worse than Troon for $425?
$350?
$200?
Don't think so.

Gib

I wouldn't use the term "worse" rather not as good - Old Head...Wentworth....for starters

You equate value for money - what is the going rate for Pebble Beach these days peak season by comparison or say TPC Sawgrass ?

I agree with the notion that it's very expensive to play some of these renowned courses - in any country - but the public keeps paying it.

To answer the original question - I wonder whether some others here have had the miss-fortune of playing either the Richmond Park courses in London ?

[Padraig Dooley]

Chris and JES,

I played in the '99 Amateur as well, Kilkeel isn't that bad, comparing it with RCD just puts it in a worse light.

Now for a list of truly ghastly courses:

Owston Hall (worst I've come across), Breadsall Priory, Wensum Valley, Bidford Grange, Mollington, East Cork, Surrey National, Swallow Suffolk, Farleigh Court, Heydon Grange.

Avoid all of the above, potentially damaging to the soul.


I can't think of anymore at the moment, hopefully because they've been banished from my memory.

[Chris Cupit]

Well.......it was pretty bad.  Certainly not the worst course I have ever played but without a doubt the worst I have ever played a national championship on!!

As an American most of my trips to the British Isles are spent playing the "better" courses so I see how that can skew things a bit.  But the course was definitely forced onto some really bad property. If I was right about it being 9 holes at first I am sure it is an excellent example of how a decent 9 is far superior to a crappy 18.

Matthew,

Thanks for the mini "review".  I played fine there as well but I can't see how the members would think #7 is great--maybe a few Guinness beers?!?!  

[Matthew Hunt]

Well.......it was pretty bad.  Certainly not the worst course I have ever played but without a doubt the worst I have ever played a national championship on!!

As an American most of my trips to the British Isles are spent playing the "better" courses so I see how that can skew things a bit.  But the course was definitely forced onto some really bad property. If I was right about it being 9 holes at first I am sure it is an excellent example of how a decent 9 is far superior to a crappy 18.

Matthew,

Thanks for the mini "review".  I played fine there as well but I can't see how the members would think #7 is great--maybe a few Guinness beers?!?!  

Its a 'members bonce' hole I probably. Kilkeel does seem to get a National championship every couple of years I once read a review by an Americian that said it was as good if not better than RCD This course holds happy memories for me because on my first play I won my first ever schools match 8 and  6!

The strange thing aboy it has about 1000 acres of class land on the estate and probably has the golf course on the worst land. This could be a Matthew Hunt redesign in the future  

[Gib_Papazian]

Kevin,

Parsing words. Do you work for the Cliton (sic) campaign? Actually, I take issue with your post solely by the fact that Old Head is worth the money once - not because it has more than five excellent holes - because it is situated on the most stunning knob of land I have ever seen.

As for Wentworth and that cheesy castle, it is impossible to be treated in a ruder manner. I wrote a series several years back about how to plan a golf trip to the U.K.. I'll try and dig up my comments on Wentworth, which were nearly censored by the managing editor. That stated, unlike Troon, the golf course is really fine.

Sean,

Mea culpa. The selection of holes was a tyop. I've got to speak to my fact checker and copy editor about that.  Interestingly, my double-bogey five at the Postage Stamp had me hitting first in our foursome off the next tee.

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