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Kyle Harris

Mike,

Kick that 13th tee a bit close to the 12th green and you're dead on it. By the way, wouldn't the left side of the 5th hole technically be in Upper Darby as well?

Mike_Cirba

Kyle,

Hmmm...so it is.     

I'm not sure I want to go there.    :-\

Does Upper Darby still have "blue laws"?  ;)

Mike_Cirba

I came across an interesting summation of a speech by Garrett Renn, who managed and was superintendent of Cobb's Creek and the other Philadelphia golf courses from 1950 until the middle 60s when he unfortunately died in an automobile crash.

Mr. Renn designed a number of Philadelphia and NJ area golf courses, including among others Little Mill, Cranbury, Wedgewood, Latona, and Mountain View, but what is most relevant to this thread is that he was the man-in-charge during the 1950's re-routing of Cobb's Creek, and was likely the man responsible for that work, possibly in conjunction with George Fazio.

His speech at what was at the time the national superintendent's association, was titled "Speeding Play".

Speeding Play Garrett J. Renn
Mr. Renn's talk touched briefly on some 40 points that could easily be enlarged to
cover a half day session on the important solutions to speeding up play.
Garry, who operates the city courses in Philadelphia, believes it is still possible
to design a decent test of golf without making the course a racetrack. And he states:
"It is not the love of something easy that has drawn men to play. On the contrary,
it is the maddening difficulty of it".

The ideal municipal course is similar in length (6420 years) and design to the principles
set forth by James Braid a half century ago. The essence is to get them
away quickly, yet allow every shot in the bag, with a strong finishing hole.
Greens should be slow - 9/32 to 5/16 inch cut. Sarazen once advocated 8-inch cups
for public courses. cup settings should be center placed for week-ends with 2-cups
in the same green working well in Philadelphia.
All maintenance should be geared for mechanical tools. Aprons and tees should be
large to permit use of gang mowers. Traps can still be gainfully employed to speed
up play, according to Mr. Renn. Water hazards should be removed from the playing
area, or "ball retrievers" stationed there. The rough should be cut to a point
where it is easy to locate golf balls, and trees should be grouped, pruned high,
and evergreens used to eliminate leaf removal.


Mike_Cirba

A few of us spent the frigid day with President-Elect Obama in Philadelphia, but he left and we stuck around the Free Library all afternoon with cheesesteaks for lunch, pre-dinner drinks of Schaefer Beer, and then of course, Pho Tai for dinner.

It doesn't get much better than that for golf course architectural nerds!  ;D

We didn't come upon anything earth-shattering, but I did get further confirmation that Cobb's Creek was already planned and laid out on paper sometime before it was announced as a done-deal at the Annual GAP meeting in January 1915, and possibly as early as 1913.   

We know that a committee of Hugh Wilson, George Crump, Ab Smith, and Joseph Slattery of Whitemarsh Valley were appointed by Robert Lesley of GAP in January of 1913 with the charge of finding a suitable site for the city's first public golf course. 

After first looking at sites near Belmont Mansion, by July 1913 the Committee switched gears and instead asked City Council to appropriate $30,000 to establish a free golf course in Cobb's Creek Park.

"The proposed golf course in Cobb's Creek Park is a tract of land in the northern end, and is described by the committee as an ideal site.   It consists of a plateau, with an undulating slope, dropping down to the bank of the creek."

By June 1914 it seems that a course had already been laid out there, when the following was reported;

"Work will soon be started on the first of three public golf courses which will be constructed in Fairmount Park.   Experts who have seen the layout say the first course will be the best planned municipal links in this country and that it will compare favorably with some of the best courses in this country."

It seems pretty obvious that at minimum a preliminary course "layout", or design, was already done and on paper over the period of July 1913 to June 1914.   

There were still some beauracratic snags to work out and possibly some further finessing of the design before it all was approved sometime shortly before the annual meeting of GAP in January 1915.

Today in the January 1915 "Philadelphia Press" I came across the following article that makes it sound as though a good deal of work designing the course took place from July 1913  to the date of the announcement.

Robert W. Lesley, president, stated on behalf of the Committee on the Park Golf Course, that he had seen plans for an eighteen hole public golf course prepared as the result of many consultations with himself and other golf experts, laid out at the northwestern end of Cobb's Creek Park .   The course is so located that the locker and other houses near the first and last holes are within ten minutes walk of the two trolley lines...   He added further that he is assured that work on the preparation of the course will be begun as soon as the weather permits in the spring.   The new links will be of championship length and character and will give Philadelphia a public golf course second to none in the United States."

Also, Joe Bausch has promised that more of the Tillie DePalma video will be appearing on YouTube shortly.

For those of you who missed the first part of our amazing day with this wonderful man who we toured the course with at age 97, and who was Joe Coble's caddie in the 1920's, here's part one;

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjsGQEizAk

« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 10:15:27 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

One other editorial I came upon the month after the course opening (June 1916) made me wish that such were still true today;

"Many local golfers who were instrumental in having this course built are now receiving congratulations upon the successful result of their campaign.   Rather, however, should they be bending their efforts towards the building of at least two more public courses.   One such golf playground for a city of this size and importance in the sporting and golf world, and a city with such a great population argues a lack of energy on the part of the great body of golfers of this city, and a selfish spirit."

"Many cities smaller than Philadelphia have more than one such course, while a number of cities at only a small fraction of Philadelphia's size and population have been supporting public golf for years.   Only one thing makes it possible to have municipally-owned golf courses; that is the backing and support of the club golfers.   If these men do not possess the spirit and the sportsmanship to give their time and efforts towards procuring public links for thier less fortunate sportsmen, then the possibility of politicians and city officials urging them is very remote."

"The present course at Cobb's Creek Park has been pronounced by golf experts a remarkably fine course, one to test the mettle of good players, and containing every element necessary to the development of good golf players.   Some of this city's leading golf men gave their time and attention to this work.   The complaint, however, is that not enough have interested themselves in this important work."

"Contrast with local affairs the conditions in the northwest.   Out in Portland Oregon lives Howard Chandler Egan, former national amateur golf champion.   Egan has started the project of building a municipal golf course in his home city and has become so wrapped in his work and is so enthusiastic over its possibilities that he has announced that he will be unable to defend his Pacific Northwest title next month, because the building of this new course consumes all his time.   A few sacrifices of this character by local golfers would result quickly in at least one and possibly two more municipal courses."


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjsGQEizAk
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 10:32:39 PM by MikeCirba »

Joe Bausch

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Here's are short clip of us with Til De Palma on the 6th tee at Cobb's Creek, currently configured as a par 3, but used to play as an uphill par 4:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oi7EiHztA0c

And here we are on the 17th tee and Til talks to us about his love for music and his profession as a musician:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0LebGLPgdA8

And here we are on the 10th tee and something pops into his head:  how nice it was to have a restaurant, as he called it, near the 14th or 15th hole, as some of the golfers would treat their caddy to a snack.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pD7vH7EKcY4
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 02:04:11 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

For anyone who watched the video of the 6th tee and saw what looked to be some insane guys pointing at the leafy woods and talking about an uphill drive, I believe the following two pictures might help.

The first is from during construction.   This is the 5th green, and the 6th tee would have been about 30 yards to the left of where this photo was taken.   The drive would have been up over the sharply rising hill in the left of the picture;




This is a picture taken during the winter time, standing on the old 6th tee, and it's much easier to envision the formerly daunting drive requirements without a bunch of leaves on the trees!  ;)


Mike_Cirba

This past week I came across a 1958 aerial that shows the operational Anti-Aircraft missile base built in the Cold War mid-50s to thwart a nuclear invasion of the United States.

The first aerial shows the course as originally designed and was taken in 1937.

The second aerial is from 1958, and it's fairly clear to see the re-routing that was necessitated by about 15% of the original course being co-opted by the military for more serious purposes.

The third aerial is from 1971, and shows that area still largely open and restorable.

The last aerial is the course today, still prime for a full restoration to its original grandeur.













« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 11:57:47 PM by MikeCirba »

Peter Pallotta

Mike - two quick things, neither related to the main (architectural) intent of this thread.

Your reference to part of the course being co-opted for more serious purposes reminded me - I recently read The Legend of Bagger Vance.  I liked it, though it was a little too on the nose for my tastes - except for the notion that "play" is vitally important in the vast scheme of things. I never thought of it that way; I probably still don't. But a good corrective...

And the youtube that I finally got a chance to watch.  The one with Til on the 17th, remembering when he first picked up his horn and how lucky he was, and the great life that music gave him. And to think that his caddying at Cobb's Creek may have helped him hold on in the rough and tumble world until he got a chance to take up his vocation...lovely

Peter

mike_malone

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 The Golf Channel was advertising a show this week about blacks and golf. I hope there are references to Cobbs.
AKA Mayday

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1085 on: February 16, 2009, 11:24:26 PM »
Did anyone catch Uneven Fairways?  I was also hoping there was a mention of Cobb's Creek.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1086 on: February 17, 2009, 08:54:41 AM »
Geoff/Mike,

The "Uneven Fairways" show was tremendously well-done, but unfortunately there was no mention of the prominent role Cobb's Creek played in furthering integration in golf over the decades.

However, during a speaking engagement at Temple University last week, Mr. McDaniel did tell the story of Charlie Sifford coming to Philadelphia and learning the game and honing his competitive instincts at Cobb's.

Also, it did seem to me that the very first segment of "Uneven Fairways" showed someone playing at what looked to be Cobb's Creek, although the picture was flashed for about 2 seconds and I may have been seeing things.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1087 on: February 17, 2009, 01:01:15 PM »
I should also mention the recent news that the City of Philadelphia and Billy Casper Golf have finally inked the long-term managment deal (which I believe is 10 years).   

A friend sent me the press release that detailed the following;

Under the long-term agreement, BCG will direct all activities at Cobb's Creek Golf Club (Olde and Karakung courses), FDR Golf Club, John F. Byrne Golf Course and City Line Sports Center. The company operated the courses in 2008 under an interim contract.

BCG also manages multiple golf course portfolios for other major cities and counties, including Chicago (IL), Cincinnati (OH), Knoxville (TN), Tulsa (OK), Cook County (IL), Westchester County (NY) and Anne Arundel County (MD).

For Philadelphia's courses - which are part of the city's Fairmount Park system - BCG will conduct golf course maintenance, staffing and training, clubhouse operations, golf instruction, marketing and public relations, special events and financial management.

"Solidifying a long-term partnership with Billy Casper Golf is very exciting," says Mark Focht, Executive Director of Fairmount Park. "Golfers will experience even healthier course conditions and the City is primed for impressive fiscal returns from Casper's sound management."

"Billy Casper Golf dedicates considerable resources to our infrastructure, ensuring public agencies are much better with our company than without," says Peter Hill, Chairman and CEO of BCG. "At the Philadelphia courses, we plan to make significant enhancements to their physical plants and customer-service levels, so they become part of golfers' steady diets."



As an aside, City Line Sports Center includes the driving range on City Line Avenue that includes land of the original 13th fairway that was coopted by the US Army in the mid-50s to build a Nike Missile Battery, and necessitated the significant re-routing of the course that affected six holes.

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Now with Primary Source attributions! (GAP)
« Reply #1088 on: February 22, 2009, 11:29:37 PM »
Next is another photo from 1928 where the 1st, 2nd, and 18th greens are in view:




Mike,

I was going back through the thread and came across this aerial in one of Joe's posts.  The long lost Cobb's Creek swimming pool I had mentioned to you is clearly visible at the bottom of the photo.

Geoff

mike_malone

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1089 on: February 23, 2009, 09:42:13 AM »
 I love the size of #18 fairway and how it allows the ball to run away from the ideal line of play.  Also, one can see the stupidity of trees on the left of 18. The  approacxh from that angle is devilish. It is the first time I noticed those tiny bunkers short and left of #2.
AKA Mayday

astavrides

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1090 on: February 23, 2009, 12:38:16 PM »
I played cobbs on saturday for the 2nd time in my life.  I'm not so interested in a restoration to the previous routing, although it is interesting to know the history.  I think the layout is great as it is.  I just wish the turf (and maintenance in general) was in better condition.  (Granted it is winter time).  It's sad when you think about all the money that gets put into other courses that some money can't be scrounged for this.  With all the passion for this course (32 pages worth), perhaps more will get done. 

Joe Bausch

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1091 on: February 23, 2009, 12:43:23 PM »
I played cobbs on saturday for the 2nd time in my life.  I'm not so interested in a restoration to the previous routing, although it is interesting to know the history.  I think the layout is great as it is.  I just wish the turf (and maintenance in general) was in better condition.  (Granted it is winter time).  It's sad when you think about all the money that gets put into other courses that some money can't be scrounged for this.  With all the passion for this course (32 pages worth), perhaps more will get done. 

I wish I could have joined you on Saturday Alex but I was 'unavoidably detained'. 

I think a little coaching was needed so you could know exactly how the course used to be. ;)  For me, there is no comparison in that the original (or the 1928 version) layout was much better.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1092 on: February 23, 2009, 01:31:11 PM »
I played cobbs on saturday for the 2nd time in my life.  I'm not so interested in a restoration to the previous routing, although it is interesting to know the history.  I think the layout is great as it is.  I just wish the turf (and maintenance in general) was in better condition.  (Granted it is winter time).  It's sad when you think about all the money that gets put into other courses that some money can't be scrounged for this.  With all the passion for this course (32 pages worth), perhaps more will get done. 

I wish I could have joined you on Saturday Alex but I was 'unavoidably detained'. 

I think a little coaching was needed so you could know exactly how the course used to be. ;)  For me, there is no comparison in that the original (or the 1928 version) layout was much better.


I don't doubt that the previous routings were better, just that in a world with limited resources and other conflicts (e.g. that driving range), I have hope for the good rather than the ideal.

I hope to make it back there soon with you and the other experts and interested readers of this thread. 

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1093 on: February 23, 2009, 01:36:55 PM »
While I have no doubt in my mind that a few of the original holes are vastly superior to today's configuration I'm not so convinced that the original 6th hole is any better than today's 16th, nor that the original 9th is superior to today's 7th.

However, the tradeoff of losing both the "today" holes in order to get the original 12th (worth the price of admission on its own in my book) is more than worth losing today's 16th and 7th.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1094 on: February 23, 2009, 02:46:48 PM »
From an architectural standpoint, it is actually surprising to see how much of Cobb’s Creek Golf Course has actually been retained largely untouched over almost 100 years.  In fact, holes 1-5, 10-13, and 17-18 are virtually the same as they played during the 1928 U.S. Public Links tournament, each of these holes except number seventeen a part of Hugh Wilson and friends’ original design.  Although the routing has changed fairly significantly, all but one of the original greens is still in use on the present course and most of the original features remain.  The only original hole that was abandoned in the course’s early years was the par-three 14th, which crossed the creek at the lowest elevation point in the northwestern-most corner of the property, replaced by the wonderful 17th hole sometime in the mid 1920’s.

Most of the routing changes were necessitated by the US Army annexing nearly 15% (18.5 acres) of the course during the early 1950s to build an anti-aircraft artillery operation on the site of the present driving range on City Line Avenue.  As can be seen on the following aerials, this loss of acreage affected the largest portion of the property, a rectangular area in the northwest quadrant that contains holes six through sixteen.  The significant loss of property along the far western edge had the immediate effect of eliminating the then par-five 13th hole, the by-then-extinct par three 14th, and forced the 15th tee (today’s 9th) up closer to the green by about 100 yards.  The considerable narrowing (20%) of the available land for those eleven holes then created a immediate need to re-route the remaining holes (in a way to once again have a full eighteen. 

Ultimately, the loss of this one pivotal hole (the old 13th) also created the need to significantly change and re-route the old 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th holes as well, and replaced them with the present 6th, 7th, 8th, 14th, 15th, and 16th holes.    The course aerials on the following pages demonstrate clearly the routing changes caused by the Army annexation of land.  Let’s examine what was lost and gained in the exchange.

•   The original sixth hole was a daunting 380 yard par four, featuring a drive that needed to scale 80 feet of elevation change and an approach over a massive pit of sand to a green hanging on the edge of a precipice. The uphill tee-shot was eliminated and today the hole is a 275 yard par four that is slightly uphill to an unprotected green.

•   The ninth played from the heights of today’s back fourteenth tee, down into the valley, and then up again to the crowned green that is today’s seventh green.   This scenic 380 yard par four was replaced by today’s flat, somewhat awkward 470 yard par five seventh hole.

•   The original tenth was a 210 yard par three from today’s eight tee, across and up the hill to today’s fourteenth green, which would have featured a false-front approached from that direction.   Today, the 614 yard par five fourteenth plays to this green, squeezed in one-half of what used to be the original eleventh hole fairway and providing almost nothing in the way of strategic interest.

•   The original eleventh hole was an incredibly wide, wild ride of 520 yards to a green set atop a ledge, and which would have featured a strategic option of a high and low fairway on the second shot.   Today, the hole plays at half of its original width as the uphill, par four fifteenth hole.   While today’s hole is a very good one, the original was a classic.

•   The original twelfth hole was the famous 130 yard par three “island green” hole, playing from a hilltop tee, and somewhat comparable to today’s 7th at Pebble Beach in exactitude.   At the time it was built, it was called in “possibly the prettiest hole in the country”.   It was replaced by a flat, relatively mundane 120 yard approach over the creek from the original sixth tee, and the island features of the green site have been since removed. 

•   The original thirteenth was a sweeping, semi-circle 543 yard par five that teed off from the far side of the creek, ran up somewhat blindly through the present driving range, and featured an approach to a green 40 feet above the golfer to today’s 8th green.   Today’s eighth is a good, if uninspiring hole.

•   The original fourteenth is today’s ninth, only the tee was back 100 yards into the grassy area adjacent to City Line Avenue and the driving range parking lot.   From that tee, it would have been a strategically complicated, severely uphill hole of 360 yards.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 02:58:22 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1095 on: February 23, 2009, 02:51:13 PM »
From a course routing “flow” perspective, today’s course-plotting follows the original for the first five holes, going out from and back to the clubhouse on the first two holes and then crossing Lansdowne Avenue and proceeding logically along Cobb’s Creek, almost as if taking a pleasant walk in the park.

It’s when one reaches what used to be the 6th tee across the creek that the routing changes necessitated in the 50s first diverge from the original.   Today’s 6th is a pitch further up along the creek, but the original hole turned hard right away from the creek, up a uniquely steep embankment to a hilltop fairway, and then swung to the right to the highest elevation point on the golf course.   On a site with over one hundred feet of rolling elevation change, it was the architects’ solution to get from the low point of the creek bed to the high point of the hilltop in one dramatic fell swoop.

When one reviews the topographies of the site, it would not have been feasible to run many of the holes parallel to City Line Avenue in a north/south orientation or too many holes would have required steep climbs or abrupt falls.   The original architects wisely avoided such “billy goat” golf and instead, only two of the holes run in that manner, the old 6th and the original 15th (today’s 9th).  Instead, what the architects did once they got to the top of the hill at the old 6th green was to then work the holes down the hill in a side hill, oblique manner, going in an east/west orientation and bringing the player back down over the course of several wildly wide generally tumbling holes, only to climb again towards the conclusion. 

In the original routing, there were a total of 4 holes that paralleled each other working down the hill, and then the old ninth ran on a diagonal to the lower part of the property from today’s 14th tee to the present 7th green.   

When the old 13th hole in the driving range was lost, it forced the squeezing in of what are essentially six parallel holes in much too narrow a space, today’s 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, and 7th.  Thus, the course loses not only significant width and strategic playability and flexibility from the original routing, but also becomes more confined, more congested, and ultimately for a public course, more dangerous. 

Hopefully, one day the course will be restored to its original, more dramatic, strategic, and spacious routing as was envisioned and intended by Wilson, Crump, Smith, etc.

Indeed, as presently routed, the course breaks one of George Crump’s primary tenets of what an “ideal” golf course should be.   In the words of Crump biographer Warner Shelley, Crump “abhorred parallelism”, and wanted no more than two successive holes to run in the same direction.  In fact, the original routing of Cobb’s Creek only had a total of two parallel holes (7 & 8) that ran back and forth in succession,  where today one plays back and forth on  11,12, 13, 14, 15 in rather tightly packed formation.  Compared to the much more circuitous, varied, and balanced original routing, this is indeed unfortunate.


Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1096 on: February 23, 2009, 03:10:16 PM »
I don't doubt that the previous routings were better, just that in a world with limited resources and other conflicts (e.g. that driving range), I have hope for the good rather than the ideal.

I hope to make it back there soon with you and the other experts and interested readers of this thread. 

Alex,

Let's plan on getting back out there.

As far as "limited resources", I'd contend that sometimes a strategic, targeted, and highly-publicized investment in what would be a historic restoration of a world-famous course with incredible sporting history would pay for itself if done correctly.

Consider the following...

Given the present architecturally marginalized course, even before the economic meltdown, Cobb's Creek has seen a slow, slow drip away from it's former grandeur that has accelarated in recent years.

Recall that 80,000 rounds were the norm through the 1920s, which increased to 120,000 annual rounds in 1929 with the addition of the Karakung course.    Even in 1940 Cobb's Creek had more rounds than any course in the country.

In the year 2000, that number for both courses was 80,216.   In the past decade, there has already been a 45% falloff...

2001 - 68,206
2002 - 62, 291
2003 - 48,333
2004 - 44, 426
2005 - 41,737
2006 - 42,754
2007 - 44,481

I've yet to see numbers for 2008....I'd expect to see a bump given some of the publicity that's been generated, but I'd contend that the property today is being seriously underutilized when one considers the possibility of;

One historic and potentially wonderful 18 hole golf course
One shorter overflow 18 hole golf course
Two Driving ranges

Growing better grass is not the answer; it's only a small piece of the solution.
 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 03:12:31 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1097 on: February 23, 2009, 03:26:11 PM »
The original routing is seen in this 1937 aerial.





This 1971 aerial shows the original lost routing in Red with the new, compressed and compromised lined in Black with the routing numbered.




« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 03:36:41 PM by MikeCirba »

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1098 on: February 23, 2009, 03:32:12 PM »
I don't doubt that the previous routings were better, just that in a world with limited resources and other conflicts (e.g. that driving range), I have hope for the good rather than the ideal.

I hope to make it back there soon with you and the other experts and interested readers of this thread. 

Alex,

Let's plan on getting back out there.

As far as "limited resources", I'd contend that sometimes a strategic, targeted, and highly-publicized investment in what would be a historic restoration of a world-famous course with incredible sporting history would pay for itself if done correctly.

Consider the following...

Given the present architecturally marginalized course, even before the economic meltdown, Cobb's Creek has seen a slow, slow drip away from it's former grandeur that has accelarated in recent years.

Recall that 80,000 rounds were the norm through the 1920s, which increased to 120,000 annual rounds in 1929 with the addition of the Karakung course.    Even in 1940 Cobb's Creek had more rounds than any course in the country.

In the year 2000, that number for both courses was 80,216.   In the past decade, there has already been a 45% falloff...

2001 - 68,206
2002 - 62, 291
2003 - 48,333
2004 - 44, 426
2005 - 41,737
2006 - 42,754
2007 - 44,481

I've yet to see numbers for 2008....I'd expect to see a bump given some of the publicity that's been generated, but I'd contend that the property today is being seriously underutilized when one considers the possibility of;

One historic and potentially wonderful 18 hole golf course
One shorter overflow 18 hole golf course
Two Driving ranges

Growing better grass is not the answer; it's only a small piece of the solution.
 

I'm not going to argue with you, and I support what you want to do and admire your knowledge and passion.  But even for someone who is interested in architecture like me (although I'm more of a score grinder than most anyone), the first priority is decent conditioning.  Now that I've got a laser rangefinder, decent yardage markers are no longer necessary for me (although there are quite a few blind shots), but not everyone can afford a rangefinder.  And stuff like a decent map and a tad of history on the scorecard, would have been nice too.

It's true that less of a back and forth on 12-15 would be nice, but I didn't really feel like those holes were cramped or dangerous--and Im not the straightest hitter in the world.  But if someone can get that land back from the driving range, I'm all for it (I use a range maybe 4 times per year--including the couple rounds a year that I hit warm-up balls).  Just my 2 cents.

Hope we can meet up there sometime.

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - YouTube On Course Tour PARTS 2,3,4 NOW SHOWING
« Reply #1099 on: February 23, 2009, 04:26:36 PM »
From an architectural standpoint, it is actually surprising to see how much of Cobb’s Creek Golf Course has actually been retained largely untouched over almost 100 years.  In fact, holes 1-5, 10-13, and 17-18 are virtually the same as they played during the 1928 U.S. Public Links tournament, each of these holes except number seventeen a part of Hugh Wilson and friends’ original design.  Although the routing has changed fairly significantly, all but one of the original greens is still in use on the present course and most of the original features remain.  The only original hole that was abandoned in the course’s early years was the par-three 14th, which crossed the creek at the lowest elevation point in the northwestern-most corner of the property, replaced by the wonderful 17th hole sometime in the mid 1920’s.

Most of the routing changes were necessitated by the US Army annexing nearly 15% (18.5 acres) of the course during the early 1950s to build an anti-aircraft artillery operation on the site of the present driving range on City Line Avenue.  As can be seen on the following aerials, this loss of acreage affected the largest portion of the property, a rectangular area in the northwest quadrant that contains holes six through sixteen.  The significant loss of property along the far western edge had the immediate effect of eliminating the then par-five 13th hole, the by-then-extinct par three 14th, and forced the 15th tee (today’s 9th) up closer to the green by about 100 yards.  The considerable narrowing (20%) of the available land for those eleven holes then created a immediate need to re-route the remaining holes (in a way to once again have a full eighteen. 

Ultimately, the loss of this one pivotal hole (the old 13th) also created the need to significantly change and re-route the old 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th holes as well, and replaced them with the present 6th, 7th, 8th, 14th, 15th, and 16th holes.    The course aerials on the following pages demonstrate clearly the routing changes caused by the Army annexation of land.  Let’s examine what was lost and gained in the exchange.

•   The original sixth hole was a daunting 380 yard par four, featuring a drive that needed to scale 80 feet of elevation change and an approach over a massive pit of sand to a green hanging on the edge of a precipice. The uphill tee-shot was eliminated and today the hole is a 275 yard par four that is slightly uphill to an unprotected green.

•   The ninth played from the heights of today’s back fourteenth tee, down into the valley, and then up again to the crowned green that is today’s seventh green.   This scenic 380 yard par four was replaced by today’s flat, somewhat awkward 470 yard par five seventh hole.

•   The original tenth was a 210 yard par three from today’s eight tee, across and up the hill to today’s fourteenth green, which would have featured a false-front approached from that direction.   Today, the 614 yard par five fourteenth plays to this green, squeezed in one-half of what used to be the original eleventh hole fairway and providing almost nothing in the way of strategic interest.

•   The original eleventh hole was an incredibly wide, wild ride of 520 yards to a green set atop a ledge, and which would have featured a strategic option of a high and low fairway on the second shot.   Today, the hole plays at half of its original width as the uphill, par four fifteenth hole.   While today’s hole is a very good one, the original was a classic.

•   The original twelfth hole was the famous 130 yard par three “island green” hole, playing from a hilltop tee, and somewhat comparable to today’s 7th at Pebble Beach in exactitude.   At the time it was built, it was called in “possibly the prettiest hole in the country”.   It was replaced by a flat, relatively mundane 120 yard approach over the creek from the original sixth tee, and the island features of the green site have been since removed. 

•   The original thirteenth was a sweeping, semi-circle 543 yard par five that teed off from the far side of the creek, ran up somewhat blindly through the present driving range, and featured an approach to a green 40 feet above the golfer to today’s 8th green.   Today’s eighth is a good, if uninspiring hole.

•   The original fourteenth is today’s ninth, only the tee was back 100 yards into the grassy area adjacent to City Line Avenue and the driving range parking lot.   From that tee, it would have been a strategically complicated, severely uphill hole of 360 yards.





Mike,

Sorry bud, gotta call you out on some of the descriptions - your bias is apparent, exceedingly so.

The 7th in its present state is not in the least bit awkward. It's actually a remarkably fine hole that would fit in well at any number of other Philadelphia courses. The challenge off the tee is to get to the right side of the fairway and stay on the high side - anywhere left is death. The lie is hanging and a hole so short almost precludes going for it in two. I have trouble thinking the old 9th was any better - perhaps a push at best. Furthermore this hole is NOT FLAT in the least.

The 9th in its present state is a much, much, much better hole. I'm not sure what's so strategic from the longer tee as the shot called for is really just hit it to the bottom of the hill and then up top to the green. Today's tee offers a big hitter some temptation and A LOT more risk in going for the green. One also has to determine how much of the hill to take on in order to get a better approach into the slick, canted green.

Your description of today's 16th seems to imply the location of the green is somehow different than it was. Is it? I don't think so, and it's still on the precipice. That being said, despite the grandeur of the old tee shot, I'm not entirely sold that it was a better hole back in the day or even today. The obvious play from the bottom of the hill is to play toward the left side (near old 12 tee) and let the ball feed down into the fairway. From there, the approach is hit. Today, you get a 275 yard par 4 with a green that is tantalizingly drivable. Missing the green with such a tee shot is near death. Club selection and shot shape from this tee are vexing and potentially round wrecking.

Also, the 6th hole today is hardly mundane - sure it's level, but it's all carry and that tree is omnipresent. The 12th hole of yesterday is nothing like the 7th at Pebble Beach. Right side was.... a slueceway and then... grass. What's right at the 7th at Pebble Beach? I am having difficulty in thinking of this hole as remotely as exacting as the 7th at Pebble Beach. In fact, I'd bet the green at Cobb's is almost twice as large.

We certainly agree on Old 13th v. New 8th. I'm also the only one to play the old 13th in the past 40 years ;)

Furthermore, perhaps better grass IS the answer... for you to smoke.

Cobb's Creek is in serious need of an upgrade in terms of maintenance. Four years ago, the place was the worst conditioned course I have ever played. Note where your drop off is - a few years before when that all began. Get the place on a decent maintenance cycle for a few seasons, cast not your pearls before swine.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 04:34:37 PM by Kyle Harris »

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