[Kyle Harris]

Build 'em both. Rotate the routings around day to day, and use one as an emergency green if need be.

Hell, play a 19 hole course, set a precedent.  

[Joe Bausch]

Boys

My head is spinning a little with all the re-re routing we've done over the past 2 days.

Can someone verify the following starting with the 13th.

13 - 450 yard - Par 4
Tee left of Todays 6th Green - Fairway adjacent to the creek and green somewher near the current baseball batting cages.

14 - 175 yard -  Par 3
Lost tee and green but parrallell to City Ave. (could this have played to the current 8th green?
If not - then the 8th green was put in somewhere between 1916 and the mid 1930's - right

15 - 360 yard - Par 4

Current 9th hole except tee is approixmately 100 yards further back.

16 - 315 yard - Par 4
current 10th hole

17 - 450 yard Par 4
Current 11th hole

18 - 380 yard - Par 4

Current 18th hole but tee approx. 30 yards further back

Is that right?
 

13:   Yes for the tee, or just to the right of the creek.  I think the fairway perhaps didn't really bring the creek much into play unless you flubbed your tee shot, which that article implies.  I think it was a dogleg right and played to the current 8th green.  The article also talks about a shot being blind, which I guess could have been the drive, but I suspect the 2nd shot was somehow as I bet that terrain was modified when the Army came in.  I think we might have a photo from the 30's or earlier that could support this theory.
14:  I think the 14th would play to the NW, w/ the tee near the current driving range booth (probably near the right end of the booths if you were hitting balls there today) and the green left of the creek, up against Route 1.  I think the current 8th green is likely an original and was originally the green for #13.
15:  nah, just about 70 yards back, tops, IMO.
16-18:  yep, yep, yep.

[Mike_Cirba]

Build 'em both. Rotate the routings around day to day, and use one as an emergency green if need be.

Hell, play a 19 hole course, set a precedent.  

I love this idea.

The funny thing is the 17th is one of the most Merion looking holes out there!  Does anyone know what William Flynn might have been doing between 1916 and 1928?  

[mike_malone]

 As it stands now #9 and #16 bracket the back and forth holes  #10 thru #15. While there are some fine holes there  the original routing beats the daylights out of this routing by breaking up this rotation , adding several different angles to that part of the property , and interjecting some par threes into the rotation as well.

[Mike_Cirba]

As it stands now #9 and #16 bracket the back and forth holes  #10 thru #15. While there are some fine holes there  the original routing beats the daylights out of this routing by breaking up this rotation , adding several different angles to that part of the property , and interjecting some par threes into the rotation as well.

Michael,

Absolutely correct.   The original 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th all seem to have been superb holes.

[Joe Bausch]

Mother lode part deux coming soon boys.  I'm back searching early newspapers and I've found a 1915 Inky article on the routing of the course.  Stay tuned.  It likely won't be till morning that I post a diagram from the newspaper to show how the holes run and how close our predictions are!

[Joe Bausch]

It looks like the tee for the 4th was to the right of the creek slightly up in the trees (and probably a bit closer to 3 green than the tee we think we found on Saturday), meaning on the same side it is now, but the diagram doesn't indicate w/ clarity at all if our assumptions about the green location are correct.

The 5th tee is just about where the current 5th tee is as far as I can tell.  The line drawing suggests to play it as a dogleg right, meaning hit to the left fairway, then hit the 2nd shot back across the creek, 400 yards total.

The drawing shows the 6th hole at 390 yards with the tee across the creek (meaning, across the current washed out bridge leading to the used in the past tee for the current par 3 6th).

The 7th-10th are pretty much as we think.  

Now, the gargantuan par 5 11th is perhaps slightly different if this line-drawing is accurate and between 1915 and the course opening things did not change.  The tee would appear to be just to the right of the current long par 5 14th green (as you played that hole), perhaps right near that concrete structure.  It is listed at 570 yards and it would need to be quite far back to get that yardage.  And I think some of those trees have since grown up.  And, get this, the line-drawing suggests it plays back up the current 14th fairway, so it is a slight dogleg left.  I wonder if this is really correct.

Ah, some fun now.  The 13th tee is to the left of the creek, quite close to the P&W train tracks.  The diagram has it playing as a slight dogleg right at 450 yards.

I was incorrect on how the lost 14th hole ran.  You left the 13th green (the current 8th green) and just to the left was the 14th tee that this par 3 ran parallel to City Line south and the green tucked up against the Piggly/Wiggly and close to the 8th green of McCall.

The walk from the 14th green to the 15th tee, right up against City Line, I think, was not a long one.  The 15th is listed here again at 360 yards.

The 16th looks as expected.  The 17th suggests the green is to the left of the 16th green so that this par 4 plays a healthy 450 yards.  This one I doubt slightly as the location puts it right on the road there (Arch).

More later.  I figure this is enough to keep the natives happy.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

This is indeed exciting.

Basically, we're unearthing something that hasn't been known for at least 60 years, and going back to the very inception of the course almost a century ago.  

I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking about this stuff!  How sick is that??!?!?  

I think the 17th in that routing is that long because the tee was right behind the 16th (present 10th) green.  

The news on the 4th is wild...If we can locate the tee, based on yardage, we should be able to determine where the green was.

The rest sounds about right, and really, really exciting.

Any word on our friend Hugh Wilson?  

[Joe Hancock]

I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking about this stuff!  How sick is that??!?!?  

What the Pho?

You're a mess.....

[Mike_Cirba]

What the Pho?

You're a mess.....

I knew you were lurking out there.  

When are you going to bring me some authentic soup?   I'm expecting a special delivery to my house any day now, Joe.  

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

This is indeed exciting.

Basically, we're unearthing something that hasn't been known for at least 60 years, and going back to the very inception of the course almost a century ago.  

I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking about this stuff!  How sick is that??!?!?  

I think the 17th in that routing is that long because the tee was right behind the 16th (present 10th) green.  

The news on the 4th is wild...If we can locate the tee, based on yardage, we should be able to determine where the green was.

The rest sounds about right, and really, really exciting.

Any word on our friend Hugh Wilson?  

No direct evidence yet Wayne, errr, Mike.  

This article again mentions the course being laid out by Mr. Jesse T. Vodges, chief engineer of the Fairmont Park Commission.  My semi-informed guess:  he had to get some help, and that help may have been substantial from some talented people (read:  HW).

[Mike_Cirba]

No direct evidence yet Wayne, errr, Mike.  

This article again mentions the course being laid out by Mr. Jesse T. Vodges, chief engineer of the Fairmont Park Commission.  My semi-informed guess:  he had to get some help, and that help may have been substantial from some talented people (read:  HW).

Joe,

That's why I was asking Mark about the source of the article on the GolfPhilly website that states;

According to a contemporary newspaper account, "Much credit is due to Hugh Wilson of the Merion Cricket Club, who drew the design for the course, and to A.B. Smith of the Huntingdon Valley Cricket Club and Jesse T. Vodges, Chief Engineer of the Park, who supervised the actual construction of the links."

I'd really like to find that one to nail this down once and for all.  

[Joe Bausch]

No direct evidence yet Wayne, errr, Mike.  

This article again mentions the course being laid out by Mr. Jesse T. Vodges, chief engineer of the Fairmont Park Commission.  My semi-informed guess:  he had to get some help, and that help may have been substantial from some talented people (read:  HW).

Joe,

That's why I was asking Mark about the source of the article on the GolfPhilly website that states;

According to a contemporary newspaper account, "Much credit is due to Hugh Wilson of the Merion Cricket Club, who drew the design for the course, and to A.B. Smith of the Huntingdon Valley Cricket Club and Jesse T. Vodges, Chief Engineer of the Park, who supervised the actual construction of the links."

I'd really like to find that one to nail this down once and for all.  

Ahhh, yes, now I remember that from an earlier post by you about HW.  I'm searching like mad for this "contemporary newspaper account", but I'm coming up empty so far.  But I don't give up easily...stay tuned.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Mark mentioned that the person who found that article is no longer working for them, but he also noted that he'd try to reach him to find the source.

I'm sure there is something there because i find it beyond credulity that this is simply myth perpetuated over the past century without any factual basis.

Also, the use of the creek indicates someone who knows what the heck they were doing...not some simple "Park Engineer".

This is as vitally important as the Tillinghast/Burbeck controversy...probably more so given that Wilson only had a few courses to prove his genius, while Tilly had a bushel-load!

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

Mark mentioned that the person who found that article is no longer working for them, but he also noted that he'd try to reach him to find the source.

I'm sure there is something there because i find it beyond credulity that this is simply myth perpetuated over the past century without any factual basis.

Also, the use of the creek indicates someone who knows what the heck they were doing...not some simple "Park Engineer".

This is as vitally important as the Tillinghast/Burbeck controversy...probably more so given that Wilson only had a few courses to prove his genius, while Tilly had a bushel-load!

I'll find that article.  Don't worry.    Maybe even tonight.... famous last words.  

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, Wayne, and all:  I'm a man of my words.

I found that article Mike and so many others wanted to confirm.  Here it is!

Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer;  Date: 01-24-1915;  Volume: 172;  Issue: 24;  Page: 14;  Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Here is relevant part of the article, which I'll send to anybody that wishes the entire thing as a PDF file.

"...Such experts as Hugh Wilson, who laid out Merion and Seaview courses, George Klauder, one of the constructors of the Aronimink course, and Ab Smith, who has done a lot for the Huntingdon Valley course, have laid out the course in Cobb's Creek Park".

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

You indeed rock, my man!!!  

I'd love to have a copy of the PDF, and I may just get it framed.  

Thanks so much for your diligent efforts!!!!!!

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

You indeed rock, my man!!!  

I'd love to have a copy of the PDF, and I may just get it framed.  

Thanks so much for your diligent efforts!!!!!!

Check your mailbox.  It is there now!

[wsmorrison]

Joe,

Please send me a copy as well.  So you think Vodges was simply the man that oversaw the construction of the golf course according to the designs of Wilson, Klauder and Smith?

Mike,

You had an article that had similar attributions, right?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

Please send me a copy as well.  So you think Vodges was simply the man that oversaw the construction of the golf course according to the designs of Wilson, Klauder and Smith?

Heck, I don't know for sure.  But it sure seems possible, probably even logical.

You and all the guys at the Cobb's/Roaches event last Saturday have been e-mailed a copy of this article.  Well, everybody but our 'mystery' guest for lunch.  You are welcome to forward it along to him.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Thanks...I'm guessing it's at my work email in which case I'll see it first thing in the morning (way too soon! )

Wayne,

Yes, it wasn't the exact same article, but spoke of Wilson as laying the course out, Smith as helping, with Vodges as the engineering guy who oversaw construction.   I wish I could find the darn thing.

Jesse Vodges was the Park Engineer.   Similar to Alan Corson who succeeded him, and who is credited with at least the courses at Juniata and FDR (and likely Karakung), he was only the guy who figured out drainage, construction, manpower, etc., which isn't to minimize that role, but even the accounts of the construction of those two courses I've seen speak to the fact that Corson relied on the advice of "local golf experts" and "local golf architects", with some accounts naming a superb local golfer named "Big" Ed Clarey, who became the first pro at Juniata, and was still around and active on the local scene when FDR was opened in 1940.   In fact, local articles of the time credited Clarey with "constructing" the FDR course, along with Corson.

[Bill Hagel]

Joe

Please send to me too. This isn't quite keeping me up nights; but don't tell my boss about my productivity in work lately.

Thanks

Bill

p.s. Wayne can attest that between 1916 - 1928 Flynn was bunkering Merion, Reworking McCall, and building Rolling Green and Plymouth CC (probably other stuff too).  Is it inconceivable he built the new 17th? I think not.

[wsmorrison]

Joe,

I don't seem to have it unless I missed it in the 5 Miles Walk article.

Thanks, got it now.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

Thanks...I'm guessing it's at my work email in which case I'll see it first thing in the morning (way too soon! )

I've sent that article to your Yahoo addy just now.  Enjoy and try to get some sleep.  

Bill, I also sent it earlier to your Comcast address.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Perfect!   Thanks so much for your hard work on this.

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