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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1525 on: May 25, 2012, 07:50:01 PM »
Anyone !

Is that green and surrounds still in existence ?

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1526 on: May 25, 2012, 07:52:51 PM »
Anyone !

Is that green and surrounds still in existence ?

In parts. Perfectly restorable though.

I am curious if there are any ground level photos of the original.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1527 on: May 25, 2012, 07:53:41 PM »
Anyone !

Is that green and surrounds still in existence ?

Barely Pat.  Well, maybe a bit more than barely.

But to even suggest that this green could be due to Travis' reported involvements at Cobbs would be oh so wrong.  Just ask David and TMac for their opinion, which is fact normally.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 07:59:14 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1528 on: May 25, 2012, 07:58:44 PM »
Joe,

I immediately thought of the 12th at Garden City Golf Club.

I love the almost castle like green with it's sand moats and berm fortifications/defenses.

Why wouldn't anyone like to restore that green and surrounds ?

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1529 on: May 25, 2012, 08:02:31 PM »
Joe,

I immediately thought of the 12th at Garden City Golf Club.

I love the almost castle like green with it's sand moats and berm fortifications/defenses.

Why wouldn't anyone like to restore that green and surrounds ?

I think those walls might have been maybe 10' tall. . . Not sure how easily grass could be grown and maintained on all faces.

But I'll check with the experts in central Ohio and southern California to be sure.  ;)

Edit:  based upon shadows perhaps 10' tall walls is too high an estimation... Maybe 6' in spots?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 08:10:38 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #1530 on: May 25, 2012, 08:14:56 PM »
No idea, Kyle.

Take a look at the green complex on the current #10 at Cobb's Creek.  I have now dubbed that the "Tie Fighter green" and I will make it my mission to have that fully restored. ;D

Pat,

I have dreamt for 5 years about restoring that green complex.  I nicknamed it the "Tie Fighter" green because it resembles the shape of the spaceships from Star Wars when you look at the aerials.  When we first saw the original green complex, all of us commented on how it looked similar to the bold features Travis utilized on many of his courses... It was not long after that we learned he did visit Cobbs at least once.

Regards,

Geoff
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 08:17:18 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1531 on: May 25, 2012, 08:28:25 PM »
The hole looks like fun.  To me an interesting factor is with what looks to be a slight ridge running up the middle of the green.

But to even suggest that this green could be due to Travis' reported involvements at Cobbs would be oh so wrong.  Just ask David and TMac for their opinion, which is fact normally.

Quote
But I'll check with the experts in central Ohio and southern California to be sure.

Joe Bausch, you are full of these passive-aggressive little swipes lately.  It is easy to take such shots without actually engaging in anything relevant, but hardly productive.  I keep hoping you will actually try substantive discussion sometime as I think we would all benefit.

In truth, I don't know anything about the origins of that golf hole.  Why don't you fill us in?  Am I wrong in assuming that was the work of "shaper" Flynn?  If I am wrong, I'd like the record set straight to so  so reflect.   As a few of us are interested in the hole, if you have any information as to its origins, we'd be grateful.  That is the sort of thing I was hoping for in the Cobb's work.  

Likewise regarding the rest of my questions and comments.  Instead of pushing this toward yet another juvenile battle of personalities, why not address the substance?  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1532 on: May 25, 2012, 08:55:49 PM »

Posted on Mike Cirba's behalf:



Finally, I'd ask you why you didn't correct Tom MacWood's obvious interprative error when he read the William Evans article incorrectly, believing that the mention of Wilson, Smith, and Klauder being newly assigned to help the Fairmount Park commission indicated they were the only ones involved when a careful reading indicates that the layout was already routed at that point?
 
Thanks for your response,
Mike
 

What are you talking about? You know damn well I read Evans' article correctly, and more importantly I read Lesley's commendation in 1916 correctly as well.

You wrote, in bold I might add, "It is important to note that it appears from these accounts that the actual 'layout' or course routing seems to have already been completed by this time." This would have been some time between June 1914 and November 1914, which is where you placed your comment chronologically.  

In January 1915 Evans identifies those three men. On its own I would read this with a grain of salt because there are fourteen men who were identified by one reporter or another as a designers of the course. The comment that has the most weight IMO comes from the guiding force for the entire project from very beginning to end, Robert Lesley. At the 1916 GAP annual meeting, at the end of the project, he identified and thanked Wilson, Smith, Klauder and Winthrop Sargent for their untiring work in developing the golf course at CC. He singled these men out, and if anyone would have known who did what it was Lesley. Oddly this quote seems to have disappeared from the report/tome.

The Philadelphia Inquirer also identified Wilson and Smith as the primary designers, but I guess that is not as glamorous or impressive as the long list of famous architects. Nine to be exact, which could have been sixteen if others with less name recognition were not excluded. Please stop blowing smoke up our butts. It is not necessary to exaggerate in order to sell this project.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 08:58:04 PM by Tom MacWood »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1533 on: May 25, 2012, 08:59:45 PM »
The hole looks like fun.  To me an interesting factor is with what looks to be a slight ridge running up the middle of the green.

But to even suggest that this green could be due to Travis' reported involvements at Cobbs would be oh so wrong.  Just ask David and TMac for their opinion, which is fact normally.

Quote
But I'll check with the experts in central Ohio and southern California to be sure.

Joe Bausch, you are full of these passive-aggressive little swipes lately.  It is easy to take such shots without actually engaging in anything relevant, but hardly productive.  I keep hoping you will actually try substantive discussion sometime as I think we would all benefit.

In truth, I don't know anything about the origins of that golf hole.  Why don't you fill us in?  Am I wrong in assuming that was the work of "shaper" Flynn?  If I am wrong, I'd like the record set straight to so  so reflect.   As a few of us are interested in the hole, if you have any information as to its origins, we'd be grateful.  That is the sort of thing I was hoping for in the Cobb's work.  

Likewise regarding the rest of my questions and comments.  Instead of pushing this toward yet another juvenile battle of personalities, why not address the substance?  

David, did I or Mike state as fact that this green was done by Travis?  Is this question relevant enough for you?

Will you next question Geoff about his thoughts?  He has lived in Philly longer than me.  ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #1534 on: May 25, 2012, 10:14:50 PM »
No idea, Kyle.

Take a look at the green complex on the current #10 at Cobb's Creek.  I have now dubbed that the "Tie Fighter green" and I will make it my mission to have that fully restored. ;D

Pat,

I have dreamt for 5 years about restoring that green complex.  I nicknamed it the "Tie Fighter" green because it resembles the shape of the spaceships from Star Wars when you look at the aerials.  When we first saw the original green complex, all of us commented on how it looked similar to the bold features Travis utilized on many of his courses... It was not long after that we learned he did visit Cobbs at least once.

Geoffrey,

Armed with aerial and ground level photos, a faithful restoration would be spectacular.

But, I wonder if the modern golfer would appreciate the final product.


Regards,

Geoff

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1535 on: May 25, 2012, 11:16:23 PM »
From the peanut gallery.....

That is some fantastic green complex!!!

Mike C. described it to me when we were there last year, Unbelievable!!!

Joe B.,

Does the Hanse restoration plan bring back this complex?

Malcolm


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1536 on: May 25, 2012, 11:17:02 PM »
David, did I or Mike state as fact that this green was done by Travis?  Is this question relevant enough for you?

I don't know, Joe. You tell me.  Did you or Mike state as fact that this green was done by Travis?    I was under the impression that you guys were touting William Flynn as having personally creating each and every feature himself.  You know . . .  "The fact that renowned architect William Flynn . . . personally constructed each of the greens and bunkers at Cobb's Creek."  So I am not sure why you keep bringing up Travis in conjunction with this hole.

But if you guys want to try and connect the hole to the Travis and/or the old 12th at Garden City, then knock yourself out.  I have doubts myself, but my point remains the same regardless --the features shown in the photo are hardly indicative of any sort a naturalism aesthetic.
Quote
Will you next question Geoff about his thoughts?  He has lived in Philly longer than me.

I am enjoying hearing Geoff's thoughts about the hole and hope he continues expressing them.
___________________________________________________




Geoffrey Walsh,  

Since Joe seems to want me to ask you . . . do you think the hole was inspired by Garden City's old 12th hole?  

Regardless, I can see why you would want the hole restored.  It would be like none other.  Like Patrick I have my doubts about how it would go over with the general public, but Gil and Jim might be game to at least try. They did some pretty funky old timey stuff when they renovated Soule Park in Ojai and got what I thought were great results.  he management toned down some of it but parts survived, and the style might sell better out there especially with a renovation angle.  

Would you call the aesthetic architectural stylings on the hole any sort of attempt at naturalism?  I've never seen anything like that in nature. Have you?  

« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 11:20:11 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1537 on: May 25, 2012, 11:27:24 PM »
I"m with David on this one. That is unusual for a Flynn Green.

Wayne M. where are you??

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1538 on: May 25, 2012, 11:46:20 PM »

I"m with David on this one. That is unusual for a Flynn Green.

Wayne M. where are you??

Malcolm,

You're not allowed to mention his name on this site.

Just refer to him as Lord Voldemort, he whose name cannot be mentioned ;D


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1539 on: May 26, 2012, 10:18:36 AM »
From Mike Cirba:


David,
 
Thanks for your interest and support of the Cobb's Creek restoration project.   Have a nice holiday weekend.
 
Mike

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1540 on: May 26, 2012, 12:43:38 PM »
While they are both types of fortress greens, the connection to the 12th at Garden City has always seemed a bit of a stretch to me, as does the attempt to read Travis (Barker?) into the project through this hole.  Here is the old Garden City hole.    

The shaping and features are almost delicate and sophisticated in comparison to the rough trenches and mounds on the CC hole, and they are also differently placed, with the bunkers set back well away from the green and the mounding actually in the green itself, creating an interior bowl.  

And it is not as if Hugh Wilson hadn't directed the construction of a fortress green a few years before, on Merion's attempt at a shortish Alps hole.  And that last part seems important.  We cannot just look at the aerials, but must consider the context, particularly the topography of the respective holes.  Given the significant uphill nature of this hole, and Wilson's involvement, it seems less of a stretch to consider that this might be another Hugh Wilson attempt at an Alps hole.

Here, from the Dallin Aerial Collection, is the decaying version of Merion's Alps hole after it was no longer in commission (1925). Grass has grown over the large back bunker.


Also here again is the hole at Cobb's.







« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 12:52:40 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1541 on: May 26, 2012, 01:35:26 PM »
A much better example of an attempt to copy Garden City's 12th was Barker's 16th hole at Columbia Country Club, which again featured the horseshoe type mounding on or very close to the green.  

Here are two photos of the Columbia hole, the bottom one from very early on and the top from when the hole matured a bit.


I've often wondered if this feature wasn't the Travis/Barker version of the CBM horseshoe mounding within a green as often seen on CBM/Raynor short holes. Obviously the scales are different in that the Travis/Barker version takes up basically the entire green, and the hole lengths are different (perhaps explaining the different scale) but the concept of either placing the shot within the horseshoe or having it run away from the pin is somewhat similar.  
_______________________________________________________


David,
 
Thanks for your interest and support of the Cobb's Creek restoration project.   Have a nice holiday weekend.
 
Mike

You are welcome, Mike, and you have a nice weekend as well.  But my comments above about George Thomas, Ben Sayers, and William Flynn are more about the historical accuracy of your work rather than anything directly to do with the restoration.  It does concern me that have used your work to oversell the project, but with the restoration project apparently advancing nicely, I am more concerned with your notion that you have recorded the CC history "for posterity."   We wouldn't want to mislead posterity, would we?

For example, given that on opening day Horace Gamble had already set up shop at Cobb's and was giving lessons and selling balls, bags, and clubs - in short, performing the functions of a course professional - don't you think it a bit much to state as fact that the famous Benny Sayers was the first first Cobb's Creek professional?  
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 01:40:56 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1542 on: May 26, 2012, 02:27:32 PM »
"I'm sure you won't throw out the baby with the bath water."

absolutely not

Dan, you know the Philadelphia Golfer magazine stash I have found (a couple on Paxon I sent along).  Well, here is an article from the November, 1927 issue detailing attendance figures at Cobb's Creek.  How neat would it be to get back to those kinds of numbers on public golf courses in our area!

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1543 on: May 26, 2012, 02:53:33 PM »
Joe, thanks for posting those numbers.  Definitely it was a busy course, but the numbers put another nail in the coffin of this notion that the Cobb's 18 hole course was ever doing 127,000+ rounds annually or that it was the busiest course in the country.

The author indicates that Cobb's was having the busiest year ever, while at the same time noting that congestion had been reduced in "the late months" by the opening of 11 holes at the Karakung course.  Looking at the monthly numbers, it seems they track within range of the 1925 and 1926 number through May, but then take a big leap in June.   My guess is that the holes of the Karakung course opened around June of 1927 and the numbers reflect play on both courses.   Otherwise conjestion on the Cobb's Course would have been significantly worse than ever from June on.

Quote
How neat would it be to get back to those kinds of numbers on public golf courses in our area!

Having attempted to negotiate the LA municipals prior to the opening of Rustic Canyon, I speak from experience when I suggest you guys be careful what you wish for.  Overcrowding and congestion can lead to poor conditions, neglect, and six hour rounds, and can sap the life out of a quality layout just as much an unsympathetic restoration.

Does Philly have any sort of a rationing program or system set up to assure that city residents are allowed first shot at access it its city courses?  When I was living in they area access was not much of an issue, but that could change if the restoration is successful.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 02:55:15 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1544 on: May 26, 2012, 03:30:24 PM »

Having attempted to negotiate the LA municipals prior to the opening of Rustic Canyon, I speak from experience when I suggest you guys be careful what you wish for.  Overcrowding and congestion can lead to poor conditions, neglect, and six hour rounds, and can sap the life out of a quality layout just as much an unsympathetic restoration.

Does Philly have any sort of a rationing program or system set up to assure that city residents are allowed first shot at access it its city courses?  When I was living in they area access was not much of an issue, but that could change if the restoration is successful.


AFAIK, Philly does not have a priority system for city residents.  It is currently first-come, first-serve.

If something ever does happen and overcrowding results, I think that would be a very nice 'problem' to have.   ;D  If starting times in the afternoon are delayed for more than an hour, Mike and I will simply head to the ethnic restaurants in Upper Darby.   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1545 on: May 26, 2012, 05:00:31 PM »
Those summer figures represent a foursome every 6 minutes for 11 hours a day. You guys want grass on your golf course, right?

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1546 on: May 26, 2012, 05:19:48 PM »
I haven't read through 62 pages and I never will without penalty of death but congratulations to all who restored or preserved a course important to the Philadelphia community.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1547 on: May 26, 2012, 05:29:52 PM »
I haven't read through 62 pages and I never will without penalty of death but congratulations to all who restored or preserved a course important to the Philadelphia community.

Thanks for your kind words Bill.  No restoration has happened at this time.

You can catch up faster, and follow along with future happenings, at this site which I'm updating frequently:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/focc/Friends_of_Cobbs_Creek/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1548 on: May 26, 2012, 05:35:10 PM »
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba



All,
 
I haven't had the opportunity to read to much in the past day or so, but I did see a picture of the old "Tie-Fighter" green as Geoff Walsh dubbed it and noted that Patrick Mucci instantly saw the same comparison that I did...to the old 12th at Garden City.   It also bears close relation to a similar greensite Walter Travis did at Columbia.   With that in mind, some months back when I was still on the site I speculated that this might have been a contribution by Walter Travis to Cobb's Creek, simply because it is such a complete "one-off" from virtually every other greensite created there, most of which are very low-profile.   I further speculated that this might have been a particularly troublesome area for construction, as most of the land right around there slopes away very steeply, and is the site of where very visible earthmoving took place (for instance, to create today's 13th tee).   
 
Now, as the guy in charge of features, I'm thinking that William Flynn was at least physically and mentally capable of creating something like this, particularly with Travis's instructions.   Do we know?   No, of course we don't, but we know both Flynn and Travis were involved and have documentation providing those facts.
 
What I find a bit "interesting" is that since that picture was posted, after Patrick's response some now seem to see value in that hole.   If memory serves, it was posted previously by the same folks and used as an object of ridicule.   At that time, when I posted pics of the greens at Garden City and at Columbia I was assured that I was indeed an idiot, out of my mind, and probably disengenous, as well.  ;)  ;D
 
No matter, all's for the better forward progress as they say!
 
I also see where Tom MacWood questions my judgment of his interpretation of the William Evans article.   Perhaps if I just show the parapraphs in question I can explain better. 
 
Now, Tom reads the following January 31st, 1915 article as indicating that only Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, and George Klauder designed the golf course.   I think he makes a basic mistake here, as the course was already routed seven months prior to then as I will show in a moment.   But here are the two paragraphs back to back, and I think you'll see what I mean.   
 
We see in the first paragraph clear indication that the course has been routed as Evans tells us that the creek is used "on six holes as hazards guarding the greens".
 
Then, in the next paragraph, we see the mention of the three men who "will aid" (future tense) "the park engineers in laying out the course", which clearly means the construction process by that late date.   
 

 
 
Now, I'm not certain that these were the only three men involved in the construction process as just a few days later, on February 8th, 1915, a special GAP meeting is held and appointed a "Park Golf Committee" to work in conjunction with the Park Commissioners.   Strangely, Hugh Wilson's name is not on there, but we know from other accounts that he was heavily involved in the construction process;
 

 
Almost a year later, on January 9th, 1916, with construction complete and the course set to open the following spring, Joe Bunker wrote the following, speaking of Ellis Gimbel of Philmont;
 

 
 
Yet, I have no doubt that from a construction standpoint, that work was almost all Hugh Wilson, George Klauder, and Ab Smith, working with William Flynn (who was superintendent of two courses at Merion at the time and was doing this with likely permission of Winthrop Sargent, who was Merion's Head of Greens Committee at the time.   Over the winter, with the course set fo open the following spring, the GAP acknowledged their efforts at the annual conference.   It is important to keep in mind that in 1916 Merion would host the US Amateur, after a significant number of architectural improvements implemented by Hugh Wilson and William Flynn.
 

 
 
This article talks about the amount of time spent by Wilson and Smith during the construction process to get the course ready after the plans were decided upon;
 

 
 
So, how and when did the plans get created in the first place?   It might be helpful to step back and timeline these steps;
 
First, in February of 1913, shortly after Merion's East course was opened for play and right after approval was given to create Merion West, as well as right after George Crump had purchased 184 acres the previous autumn and was hard at work trying to locate golf holes, both men were appointed by GAP along with Ab Smith, who had done extensive toughening of Huntingdon Valley, as well as Joseph Slattery of Whitemarsh Valley to "a committee of experienced golfers", as one news account called them, charged with finding a location for a public golf course within the Philadelphia park system.  Other news accounts referred to them as "expert golfers'. 
 

 
The committee first recommended a site in Fairmount Park for a nine hole course (expandable to 18) near Belmont Mansion, and in April of that year a number of members of GAP met with Park Commissioners to go over the land in question.   Everyone was at first optimistic, but when the matter was taken to a vote two months later in June of that year, concerns were raised about safety and no funds were available from the Fairmount Park Commission directly.   
 
However, it appears that the Committee had already found their Plan B...a site in Cobb's Creek, which the committee termed "ideal".   Indeed, at that time the Fairmount Park Commission approved asking Council to appropriate $30,000 for the purpose.
 
From the Fairmount Park Commission Meeting minutes of June 1913;
 


 
At the time, AW Tillinghast wrote;
 
"The Commission decided that there was no available place in Fairmount Park for a public golf course. The Committee on Police and Superintendence, through its chairman, Eli K. Price, suggested instead that Councils be asked to appropriate $30,000 to establish a free golf course in Cobb's Creek Park, where there is an unbroken tract of 91 acres available for an 18-hole golf course."


"Mr. Price declared the subject had been thoroughly investigated by the committee, and that it had been agreed there was not enough available land for an 18-hole course in the Park. The committee, he declared, had learned that it would require about $15,000 to lay out a course along Cobb's Creek, $15,000 to build locker houses and $10,000 for its yearly maintenance. The committee, therefore, requested the Commission to ask Councils to set aside $30,000 for this purpose. The request was adopted."

 
Another account from the period;
 

 
Unfortunately at the time, Council failed to act and other sites were considered.   In December of 1913, Tillinghast reported;
 
Those who have been working for a Philadelphia public golf course have not permitted the first rebuff to dishearten them nor have they been inactive. President Robert Lesley, of the Golf Association of Philadelphia, asserts that the city will have the course, and in Fairmount Park, too. The committee believes that a tract close by Cobb's Creek is suited nicely to the requirements.
 
Finally, in April of 1914 Council appropriated the monies for the course at Cobb's Creek.   Sometime that spring it appears the routing was completed, because the following news account appeared in June of 1914;
 

 
Still, with appropriations hung up in the budget process, it wasn't until January of that year that the good news could finally be announced by President Robert Lesley at the GAP annual meeting;
 

 

 
Subsequent accounts of the creation of the golf course and the men involved included this from two weeks prior to course opening;
 

 
This one is from "Peter Putter" in 1917;
 

 
This one from 1921;
 

 
This one from William Evans in 1922;
 

 
This one from Joe Dey in 1928;
 

 
There is a remarkable amount of documentation around this project, most found by the amazing Mr. Bausch, researcher extraordinaire.
 
I really can't imagine for the life of me why anyone thinks we shouldn't have provided all of this amazing history to our readers and interested parties, or omit any of these talented men who gave of their time and efforts to create the golf course.  Thanks to everyone for your wonderful support and interest.
 
And finally, another article that gives some idea of the course's reputation before the Depression years, this from 1928;
 

 
 


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1549 on: May 26, 2012, 07:10:42 PM »
Mike,

As for your comments about the old 16th green at Cobb's, I think you are misreading and/or misremembering the inconsistencies in viewpoints about this type of hole.  On the one hand, many including you have railed on for years about what an abomination Merion's old fortress/Alps green was.  On the other hand, Cobb's fortress green (seemingly also an attempt by Wilson at an Alps green) is revered and a strong candidate for restoration on a course held up as an example of "naturalism."  

Meanwhile a few of us try to appreciate both holes for what they were and try to consider each in the context of the times. I understand why some like the Cobb's hole despite is rough, primitive, and unnatural trenches and ridged mounds, but I don't understand how anyone can praise the Cobb's green out of one side of their mouth and condemn Merion's out of the other.

Can you see any consistency in condemning a green like Merion's original 10th as an abomination and a mistake, while at the same time praising Cobb's original 16th as a good candidate for restoration or as an example of a naturalistic aesthetic?  

As for the rest, so far as I can tell none of it addresses any of the points I've raised, and most of it seems like you are falling back into the old habit of posting the same articles and information again and again.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 07:18:18 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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