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Joe Bausch

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Another little tidbit on the construction of Cobb's Creek, this from a March 13, 1928 Evening Bulletin article where a new superintendent is discussed (Al Hand) as well as the upcoming Publinks tourney:

In both his routine work during the summer and in the championship, Hand will have the assistance of other men who have been at Cobb's Creek since it became a golf course.  One of these, the most valuable in getting the course in condition, is Dan Flaherty, the greenkeeper.  A greenkeeper at Huntingdon Valley, Flaherty was in charge of the construction gangs at Cobb's Creek in 1915 and 1916 and became greenkeeper when the links were completed.

And here is another piece of info of interest to those of us that have wondered about exact tee locations at the opening, this quote from Mr. Hand:

"So far as the grass tees are concerned, we will be all right.  When the course was built two and three tees were provided at all but six holes.  Only one tee at each of these holes is clay, so we have grass tees available at twelve holes now.  The other six can be sodded in a short time."
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Guys:

This thread is so long it may be in here somewhere but I don't remember anything about what the construction cost was of the course. Have any of you seen anything on that?

Another thing I didn't fully appreciate not knowing the course first hand is how few bunkers there've been on it and designed and built on it. Do you know how many total bunkers the course had in design plans and in construction and on opening or even at what you'd consider it's high point?

For some of those Philly architects most certainly including Flynn the thought was really good topography on holes essentially did the job bunkering would do if land wasn't that good topographically.

Of course the interesting course bunkerwise (considering its excellent topography) was ANGC with only 22 planned originally. With ANGC I'm certain that very small number of bunkers wasn't for economic reasons, it was done to make an architectural/strategic point.

And of course people like Wilson and Flynn were very much into the economics and cost efficiences of maintenance/operating budgets and costs. They were sort of on the cutting edge of their times that way and I think we can supply material to basically prove that.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 01:52:44 PM by TEPaul »

Joe Bausch

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Guys:

This thread is so long it may be in here somewhere but I don't remember anything about what the construction cost was of the course. Have any of you seen anything on that?

Another thing I didn't fully appreciate not knowing the course first hand is how few bunkers there've been on it and designed and built on it. Do you know how many total bunkers the course had in design plans and in construction and on opening or even at what you'd consider it's high point?

For some of those Philly architects most certainly including Flynn the thought was really good topography on holes essentially did the job bunkering would do if land wasn't that good topographically.

Of course the interesting course bunkerwise (considering its excellent topography) was ANGC with only 22 planned originally. With ANGC I'm certain that very small number of bunkers wasn't for economic reasons, it was done to make an architectural/strategic point.

Tom, Cobb's was built for $30,000.

I'll let Mike comment more completely on the bunkering as he has this info pretty fresh in his head.  However, I will point out that Cobb's Creek has a grand total of zero, zip, nada fairway bunkers currently.  And all the early aerials we have show no fairway bunkers back in the late 20's through the late 30's.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Guys:

This thread is so long it may be in here somewhere but I don't remember anything about what the construction cost was of the course. Have any of you seen anything on that?

Another thing I didn't fully appreciate not knowing the course first hand is how few bunkers there've been on it and designed and built on it. Do you know how many total bunkers the course had in design plans and in construction and on opening or even at what you'd consider it's high point?

For some of those Philly architects most certainly including Flynn the thought was really good topography on holes essentially did the job bunkering would do if land wasn't that good topographically.

Of course the interesting course bunkerwise (considering its excellent topography) was ANGC with only 22 planned originally. With ANGC I'm certain that very small number of bunkers wasn't for economic reasons, it was done to make an architectural/strategic point.

And of course people like Wilson and Flynn were very much into the economics and cost efficiences of maintenance/operating budgets and costs. They were sort of on the cutting edge of their times that way and I think we can supply material to basically prove that.

Tom,

We're talking gravity golf here, au natural, in the buff, stripped down to the bare essentials.  ;D

In the earliest aerials I have from the 1920s, there are exactly 8 bunkers on the front side and 12 on the back.

This number includes 4 bunkers on the 17th hole, which we know was built between 1922-28.  

There are also 3 bunkers on the 2nd hole.

As Joe mentioned there are no fairway bunkers, anywhere.

Today, there are 23 bunkers on the course.

A significant number of the bunkers out there are actually "saving" bunkers; that is, bunkers that have been placed to prevent the ball from rolling to an even worse predicament.   Examples can be found on the right side of #1, the left side of #2, behind #8, on the left rear of #9, on the left of #11, short left and long on #12, behind #14, right of #15 and right of #18.   That makes 10 of 23.  

With very few exceptions, though, you could remove virtually all of the bunkers on the course without affecting strategy, interest, or challenge.

How many courses can you say that about??




Mike_Cirba

Tom,

Also, some of the early newspaper accounts indicated that "trapping" would be done later, once general play was observed (somewhat like the early accounts of Merion, actually).  

However, earlier in this thread, in answer to someone's speculation as to why Wilson didn't see fit to subsequently come in and bunker extensively, I replied with the following;

Or maybe, heresy though it may be, the historical record seems to suggest that Hugh Wilson was not much of a bunkering master himself, but instead was an amazing architectural prodigy, who could find wonderfully natural golf holes, incredible greensites, and sound shot values on limited acreage by fully utilizing existing topography.

Hugh Wilson resigned as Green Chairman at Merion in 1914, well before this.  Although suspect health is certainly a possible reason, as could have been the nation at war in 1917-1919, I very much suspect that he didn't fully bunker Cobbs Creek because;

1) The course was universally hailed as is.
2) The course was amazingly popular as is.
3) The course proved amazingly difficult as is.

In 1924 he worked with William Flynn to come up with a rebunkering scheme for Merion, which Flynn largely implemented after Wilson's untimely death.  So, he was still active for quite a number of years after Cobb's was built.

I suspect that after working on Cobb's Creek for six months, he would have been very pleased to hear how it's held up all of these years simply based on largely natural features.


We later learned that Hugh Wilson was involved with city public golf until at least 1922, when he was part of a committee charged with finding new sites in the city for additional public courses.   We also know that Wilson was doing additional design work at places like Philmont and North Hills thru these years, and then later at Pine Valley.   So, I have little doubt that if he wanted to "toughen" Cobbs Creek, he could have.   The record simply suggests that it didn't need it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 03:33:16 PM by MPCirba »

TEPaul

"In the earliest aerials I have from the 1920s, there are exactly 8 bunkers on the front side and 12 on the back."

If that's all you can see on a 1920s aerial, I can pretty much guarantee that's all that were originally built because it's pretty illogical they would do some initially and then just take them out that quickly and even if they did they're hard to miss on an aerial that close in time.

The scariety of bunkers on the course and none but those around greens is certainly not something I'm criticizing the course for given its topography and the obvious necessity of cost efficiencies initially and ongoing for a public course.

Those guys were some pretty clever dudes who apparently thought a lot of things through very thoroughly.

I also really like the fact that the other course about 15 years later, ANGC, did the same thing on topograhical land (only 22 bunkers) for other reasons that were certainly valid as a conceptual/strategic experiment.


Mike_Cirba

I think this comparison should provide some solid insight to the location of the original 4th tee.   This admittedly fuzzy pic seems to be taken directly from the tee, and we know that the right side background is a rapidly rising treeless hill.

If we look in the background of this photo, however, it appears to be flattish.  



So, do we think the background looks more like this;



or this;



Fellows, I think we're back to pretty close to today's tee area.

Kyle Harris

Mike,

That's still circumstantial, IMO. Do you think that flattish thing in the foreground of the top photo is the tee?

It could be.

By the way, what's that to the right of the 4th green? The green looks like an island...

Mike_Cirba

Mike,

That's still circumstantial, IMO. Do you think that flattish thing in the foreground of the top photo is the tee?

It could be.

By the way, what's that to the right of the 4th green? The green looks like an island...



Yes, I think that's the tee.  It also appears to be 150 yards from the green or so, which was the original published yardage.

I think the odds of that being the tee are considerably higher than the other photo, which looks to me to be taken from about 50 yards away (and to the left).  

If the tee was along the more dramatically photogenic left side, I'm not sure why the photog would have taken this picture from roughly today's tee?

As far as that wrapping around, I'm wondering if it isn't a bunker of some sort, or if the green was surrounded on 3 sides by water?

In any case, I know that by 1922, 200 Cobb's Creek golfers signed a petition asking Park Engineer Alan Corson to come up with some way to speed play on the 4th hole.  Evidently, it would back up so badly that sometimes the wait was "an hour or two"!   :o

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Mike,

I have always had difficulty seeing what is in that picture.  It's a shame they don't have the original newspaper clipping in the history binder at the archives because I do think it might help clear up the confusion about the 4th tee.

What's to the right of that green... I'm not sure.  It might be the creek heading out to #5, it might be a bunker, and it might be a well traveled path.  I'm not sure.  I actually am not sure what's directly in front of the photographer - is that a path or the creek?

I have come around and now agree with Kyle that we should not put too much importance into where the photographers decide to take the pictures from.  Like the shorter photo from the other angle, they may have selected that location just because it was an attractive picture.  We should all keep in mind (myself certainly included) that their main goal was to sell newspapers.

Without more definitive photographs I go back to the Vodges routing.  That's what guided the construction of the course and what I think should guide us unless we discover something clear and factual that contradicts it.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 09:18:16 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Based upon one of the accounts there were also three tees on most of the holes.  Maybe the forward tees were further right.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 09:13:05 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Mike_Cirba


Geoffrey_Walsh

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Mike,

I don't question at all if those pictures were taken from the same spot, just whether or not the back tee was located there.

However, if we do use the current line for a restoration, I think adding a little elevation to the tee (Joe climbed the hill for the top picture) does allow you to see the creek fronting the green as well as the arm behind it.  I would probably clear out the brush behind the green on the other side of the creek to make it even more visible.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 11:40:11 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Mike_Cirba

Geoffrey,

I think there's a slight disconnect on the 4th hole between what was on the "to be" Vogdes approved drawing and what actually got built.   I'm thinkin that the rocks and some of the terrain in the area may have played a part.

I also can't figure why it was so incredibly difficult at 150 yards for those early players, such that it was taking 1-2 hours of backup.

I suspect instead that where the backup actually was happening was with 5 & 6, but just became obvious on the 4th.  

Can you imagine how difficult those two holes were to beginners with hickories?

Incidentally, I think this is pretty funny...here are some of the suggestions that were submitted to Alan Corson for his consideration to ease congestion on the 4th.

1) A player failing to drive to level ground on the other side of the hazard must pick up his ball and lose the hole.

2) A player getting into the creek must pick up and lose the hole.

3) Only 2 players in each foursome will be permitted to play this hole.  

4) The 4th hole is cut-out...proceed to the 5th tee.  :)


Geoffrey_Walsh

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Mike,

If there was a difference between the routing and what was built, then we have an interesting dilemma.  If you could build the original hole as designed on the routing using modern technology, would you do it?

Those suggested options for addressing slow play are great.  If we built a 19 hole course then suggestion #4 becomes a viable option!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 10:54:30 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #765 on: January 24, 2008, 11:04:59 PM »
Many thanks to Mark for hosting us today.  I had an absolute blast!

I'll post my thoughts when I have more time but the visit only fueled my fire to restore this course.

In addition, I found two interesting links to possible aerials of the course:

http://www.brynmawr.edu/iconog/aero/maero.html
(search for #6806)

http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/Bah/dam/rg/ys/r13ys8e.htm
(under "Parks" section)

I'm not sure if either will add any value, but both should be publicly accessible.

It was great hanging out with all of you today.  Let's keep the momentum going on this project!

Joe,

Just noticed that these have fallen by the wayside.  As the expert on research, do you have any thoughts on the best way to obtain these?

Geoff

Mike_Cirba

Does anyone know if GAP has an archive?

In writing up the report, I keep coming back to how much Robert Lesley of Merion (President of GAP) drove this process over a number of years.  

Anyone know if old meeting minutes, etc., exist anywhere?

Calling Mike and Pete Trenham...white courtesy phone, please.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Just to try and keep this all in one place..

I just used the aerial measuring tool that Ray Richard turned us onto (see the Paul Turner thread) and did Cobb's Creek.

It appears that today's golf course occupies 123.71 acres.  The course originally occupied 142.53 acres.

It also appears that the property annexed by the army during the 1940s, extending from just beyond and to the left (across the creek) of today's 6th green extending out to both corners of the driving range parking lot is 18.5 acres.

When the military annexed part of the property in the 40s, it appears that about 13% of the original course was snatched up.  
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 09:10:36 AM by MPCirba »

Joe Bausch

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I'm up to the end of summer of 1923 in going through the Philadelphia Inquirer microfilm (soon I'll have access to a complete digital run, but I don't know how soon that will occur) and the par 3 17th was still not added as of August, 1923.  I found some tourney scores to strongly suggest this.

Also, an August 21, 1923 Philadelphia Ledger article talks about "a meeting of the Citizens' Committee of Philadelphia interested in more public golf courses, held in the office of W. Freeland Kendrick" that included, of course, Robert Lesley.  The blurb is the earliest I have of Alexander Findlay being mentioned in regards to the additional public courses being sought.  Findlay is called "The Father of Golf in America" in the article.  The last paragraph of the article being:

Lesley's talk was answered by Alexander H. Findlay, who recited statistics about the number of courses in use in Chicago, Cleveland, Kansas City, Boston, New York, etc., each having from three to six or eight public courses, while Philadelphia, one of the leading golf centres of the country, has only one.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Alex Findlay probably was the father of American golf or architecture as a professional in terms of starting first. He got here and started practicing apparently remarkably early. I believe it was just before the last decade of the 19th century (1888) and that is really early for American architecture.

Joe Bausch

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The weather is looking promising for some golf this weekend around Philly.  I might visit Cobb's again and am looking for any other takers.  And maybe follow the round w/ a Nick's roast beef sandwich at the original place in South Philly.... Mmmmmm, fattening....

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Mr. Microfiche,

Please keep the good tidbits coming.   Of course, I'm particularly interested in hearing anything else about Findlay and public golf, as well as anything more about Karakung.

I may be available to take you up on your offer of a round this weekend.   I'm not sure about the Roast Beast, but golf at Cobb's sounds like a plan.  

We still need to get over on the other side of the creek, you know.  

Joe Bausch

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I made another trip to the Temple Urban Archives.  This is a must visit fellas for articles about early golf around Philly.  More on that later.

Didn't Eddie in Vacation say something like 'just another mouth to the litter' when Clark noticed his wife was pregnant?!  Well, perhaps we can add another name to the Collaboration Central honor roll.  While searching for info about the architects of the second public course in Philly (Tacony), I found an August 18, 1924 Evening Ledger article with this info:

The city will be saved a big fee for a golf architect, in the program for the erection of a course in Tacony, Mr. Carson said (Carson is the Chief Engineer at this time of Fairmount Park).  He announced that he himself, a golfer, and Frank Meehan, Hugh Wilson and A. H. Smith, all members of the Philadelphia Golf Association, would probably design the course.

"Mr. Meehan, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Smith gave their aid in laying out the course at Cobbs Creek," stated the chief engineer, "and I am sure that they will help us with the Tacony links."
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

While searching for info about the architects of the second public course in Philly (Tacony), I found an August 18, 1924 Evening Ledger article with this info:

The city will be saved a big fee for a golf architect, in the program for the erection of a course in Tacony, Mr. Carson said (Carson is the Chief Engineer at this time of Fairmount Park).  He announced that he himself, a golfer, and Frank Meehan, Hugh Wilson and A. H. Smith, all members of the Philadelphia Golf Association, would probably design the course.

"Mr. Meehan, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Smith gave their aid in laying out the course at Cobbs Creek," stated the chief engineer, "and I am sure that they will help us with the Tacony links."

Joe,

You mean I just wrote 222 pages and now I have to add J. Franklyn Meehan?!?!?   ARRGGGGHHGGHGHG    :o :P :P :P

Seriously...it makes sense when one considers amount of friendly collaboration these guys did

TEPaul

Joe:

I'd doubt that Hugh Wilson could've had much to do with that course mentioned in that article as poor Hugh only had about five months to go at that point until the day he said he felt like a boiled owl.

Interesting term. I have absolutely no idea what a boiled owl feels like. Do you?