Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

"...although most of his time has been given to assisting in the laying out of public and other courses such as Cobb's Creek..."

This is the second article that mentions Cobbs Creek first among courses where Travis was spending MOST of his time helping with the layout during this period.  

If Travis was hanging round Cobbs and Pine Valley most of the time, do you not think the writer (TIlly?) would have gotten this account firsthand?

Mike,

Joe and I were just talking. I find the language vague. The second sentence to me implied whomever was asking the question of Tillinghast had heard that Travis was dealing with Cobb's Creek, and that Tillinghast's response was he has played in a few tournaments.

I feel your interpretation is valid as well, but I believe that prudence dictates a much clear attribution.

[Mike_Cirba]

The other article, from January of that year, stated;

""Walter J. Travis has spent a good deal of time lately in making suggestions as to notable public courses, especially at Cobb's Creek...."

[Kyle Harris]

The other article, from January of that year, stated;

""Walter J. Travis has spent a good deal of time lately in making suggestions as to notable public courses, especially at Cobb's Creek...."

...keep going...

[Mike_Cirba]

The other article, from January of that year, stated;

""Walter J. Travis has spent a good deal of time lately in making suggestions as to notable public courses, especially at Cobb's Creek...."

...keep going...

I think the germane part of the article that's relevant to Cobb's is this leading statement.   Even if it's the same writer he's said, twice in two months, that Travis was spending MOST of his time assisting with the layout and twice mentioned Cobb's Creek most prominently.

His work for a day up in Connecticut is almost mentioned as an afterthought.

I'm sure when the writer referred to "most of his time", and "a good deal of time" he wasn't referring to a passing day at Cobb's Creek, but instead, exactly what he wrote.

One other thought...

We know that the routing layout that was approved by Jesse Vodges was in April of 1915 and that it was built pretty much as is.

That would indicate that anything Travis might have done would be features...greens, bunkers perhaps.....probably some construction and possibly agronomy.

[Kyle Harris]

I'm sure, but do we know what that means?

It's significant enough that Travis came and signed off on the place, to me.

From your knowledge of Travis's designs and style - what do you find at Cobb's Creek that is indicative of his touch?

I just think all this parsing of articles is putting the cart before the horse. We have a fairly thorough understanding of how Cobb's has evolved and what was on the ground at various points in time. We have enough knowledge between us of all these designers - so we can probably put together a good idea as to who made what contribution and why.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

Please see my additional note above...

I'd speculatively say it was likely some green construction, especially considering the number of "at grade" greens.

[Mike_Cirba]

Just a brief update.

Tabloid rumors indicate that both the 130 yard original 12 hole and the 220 yard 17th par threes suddenly were back in play today.   According to sources, in both cases two members of a threesome were able to hit the greens in question, and another flushed a four-iron 15 yards beyond the downhill 17th.

There is also talk of a meeting to formalize a committee this coming Friday evening, at an undisclosed, clandestine location at a horse farm not far from the city.   It is further rumored that copious amounts of wine will be served and flask restoration architecture will be discussed.

[Joe Bausch]

Mike (and others),

I'll bring along some wonderful cheese from Talula's Table in Kennett Square to go with that wine.  The cheese at T2 is another reason to make the drive out to Inniscrone.  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike, Joe, et al.

Something in the back of my mind has been the shape and size of the 12th hole (today's 6th) and any potential changes for the sake of restoration.

I haven't seen the green in 3 years, but how does the shape today compare with that of the oldest picture of the green and the aerials we have?

Also, for the archeologists in us all... who wants to take some core samples to to try find any changes in green contour through years of topdressing and run off?

[Neil_Crafter]

Great thread guys and hope you are able to pull this off. What I found particularly interesting was the clear reference to Travis as "the Australian." He emigrated to the US for work in 1886 so at the time of this article in 1915 he had been in the US for 29 years - and they did not refer to him as an American. I have not found any reference before to Travis being called by his country of birth and from what I understand, if you had asked him he would have considered himself very much an American. Assimilation took a long time back then! In any event, we still claim him as one of our greatest ever architects and golfers.
cheers Neil

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, Joe, et al.

Something in the back of my mind has been the shape and size of the 12th hole (today's 6th) and any potential changes for the sake of restoration.

I haven't seen the green in 3 years, but how does the shape today compare with that of the oldest picture of the green and the aerials we have?

Also, for the archeologists in us all... who wants to take some core samples to to try find any changes in green contour through years of topdressing and run off?

Kyle,

The shape of the old 12th green (today's 6th) seems to have changed slightly, where prior it was almost heart-shaped, with the point facing about 7-o'clock.  

Today the green is much more of an oval shape, although the orientation would be similar from the original tee.  

Also, we know the "sluiceway" that made it an island green is not longer there and has been filled (although a slight indentation makes it visible in that area).   Whether that is "restorable" is something that would have to be considered as part of the overall water management/environmental impact analysis that will certainly need to be a major thrust of this effort.

As far as years of top-dressing, etc., so many of the greens are low-profile and at grade that I can't imagine much impact there, although I'm thinking it would be something to look at.

Neil,

I missed that reference...it is amazing to consider how he was thought of.   He certainly seems to have been a controversial, colorful figure who did some wonderful design work.

Thanks for the supportive words.

[Bill Hagel]

Just a brief update.

Tabloid rumors indicate that both the 130 yard original 12 hole and the 220 yard 17th par threes suddenly were back in play today.   According to sources, in both cases two members of a threesome were able to hit the greens in question, and another flushed a four-iron 15 yards beyond the downhill 17th.

When one "flushes" a 240 yard 4 iron (regardless of it's elevated orgin) it makes not finding the green in regulation a bit more acceptable. Unless you're Tiger of course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Especially when one flushes it with 1986 Taylor Made blades.  

[mike_malone]

 Did you venture down to the driving range ?

[Bill Hagel]

Did you venture down to the driving range ?

No - but wouldn't that be a hoot.  Can you imagine how the faces of the patrons would light up when they spot targets other than the ball cart to shoot at. That would make you play briskly, wouldn't it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Did you venture down to the driving range ?

Actually, not this time, but on the day that we went to the Fairmount Park Archives, Joe and I hit Cobbs on the way back.

We ended up over near the woods where the hold par three 14th would have been, and also took a look at what 15 would have been like from the original back tee (today's 9th), which indicated the need for some way to protect City Ave traffic.

I also came across something relevant from Golf Magazine on Golf.com by author Patrick White;

The course hosted the 1928 U.S. Public Links Championship and remains very much as Wilson left it, though a portion of the routing was altered during construction of a missile silo during World War II. It is still there, in a corner of the property between the 8th and 9th holes, but because it was essentially built underground, it now just looks like an overgrown parking lot.

Just thinking that if I'm reading this as literally true, it may pose some construction issues, or give whole new meaning to the term "blind hazards"!!  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Was that a Nike site? If so, you may be aware that Northampton Valley CC in Richboro is built on top of a similar, and the missile elevators are still just to the left of the Par 3 15th green.

[Bill Hagel]

Did you venture down to the driving range ?

I also came across something relevant from Golf Magazine on Golf.com by author Patrick White;

Mike - what was the date of the article?  I thought the military decommissioned all the old Nike sites in this area.  I know one where there is a school on top of the old site now.  Also - Nike sites were usually built under large hills.

[Kyle Harris]

Did you venture down to the driving range ?

I also came across something relevant from Golf Magazine on Golf.com by author Patrick White;

Mike - what was the date of the article?  I thought the military decommissioned all the old Nike sites in this area.  I know one where there is a school on top of the old site now.  Also - Nike sites were usually built under large hills.

Bill, I did some back research on the internet and I'm fairly certain it wasn't a Nike site. Most were active until SALT 1 was signed in the 70's, which was the death knell for the Nike air defense system.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike - what was the date of the article?  I thought the military decommissioned all the old Nike sites in this area.  I know one where there is a school on top of the old site now.  Also - Nike sites were usually built under large hills.

Bill/Kyle,

The article was from 1993.   I don't know the author's source but suspect it may have been some mixture of fact and supposition.

Here's a link;

http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,1570410,00.html

[Mike_Cirba]

This might be better placed in the Hugh Wilson thread, but apparently Wilson's relationship with Philadelphia public golf efforts extended well beyond the 1916 opening of Cobb's Creek.

In the spring of 1922, the following article appeared in Philly newspapers;

"City Council yesterday launched an inquiry into suitable sites for additional public golf links, after members indicated they would unanimously support recreation grounds of this type..."

"A resolution introduced by William Roper of Germantown and passed without dissent, provides for a committee to include two member of Council.   Alan Corson, chief engineer of the Fairmount Park Commission, and Hugh I. Wilson and A.H. Smith of the Philadelphia Golf Association.  This committee will seek out the proper sites and report to council."


Interestingly, plans were drawn up shortly thereafter for courses to be built in the Tacony section of the city, as well as League Island (today's FDR park).   The first course was never built to my knowledge, and FDR opened in 1940.

The next courses to open after Cobb's Creek were Karakung, on the Cobb's Creek Park property, and Juniata GC in northeast Philly, both in 1927.  

No one knows yet for sure who designed Karakung, but Juniata is credited to "Alan Corson, who had advice of local golf architects".  

We look forward to finding more when the period of 1923-1930 is released digitally at Villanova, which Joe believes should be fairly soon.


Also, for those wondering about the results of our efforts, more information should be coming soon.

[BCrosby]

Joe -

Do you know who wrote the response to the question that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer, March 8, 1914? (You posted the article several pages back.)

I am asking because whoever provided that answer had a very sophisticated grasp of gca issues.  

Bob

[Joe Bausch]

Joe -

Do you know who wrote the response to the question that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer, March 8, 1914? (You posted the article several pages back.)

I am asking because whoever provided that answer had a very sophisticated grasp of gca issues.  

Bob

That was Verdant Greene, another of the golf writers for the Inquirer of that era where pen names appear to have been used.  We've been discussing the potential identities of VG and the "Bunker brothers" both on this thread and in private e-mails, but we've not been able to reach any firm agreement of who they were (or weren't).

[BCrosby]

Joe -

I assume AWT is a possibility. No? Who else are people suggesting?  

Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe -

I assume AWT is a possibility. No? Who else are people suggesting?  

Bob

Bob,

I'm of the belief that at least some, if not most, of the "Joe Bunker" and possibly the "Verdant Greene" articles were Tillinghast, although I also believe he had help, and sometimes a substitute writer.

Phil, Joe, and I have debated this but we have no final proof yet.