[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike, I don't have the specific Philly Inky article readily in front of me, but (I vaguely?!) remember that they reported the 13th involves a tee shot over Cobb's Creek.  I believe that supports the hole running originally just like the ball and stick diagrams depict.

Joe,

Your recollection is correct.  As the Philadelphia Ledger article states above, the 13th hole is played across the creek (on the tee shot).

Are we thinking those trees were planted (and the tee moved) between 1915 and the late 1920's?

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

The topography of the ground and the pretty significant slope down from the 9th green to the current driving range would have certainly helped.

From the original drawing it seems that the 9th green is almost 40 feet higher than the 13th tee.



Today, it's also less of a concern because of trees planted around the left of the 9th green (today's 7th), presumably to protect it back when.

Also, with the army's work on flattening the driving range, you could now run the fairway all the way open to the creek.   If someone can post a modern aerial (I can't get Mapquest to cooperate), you'll see what I mean.

I agree...I think further personal investigation is in order.  

Another related twist I just noticed is that the 14th hole is listed as 150 yards in 1917, not the 175 conceived in the drawing.

Did they decide to put the green back near the creek anyway?    I smell core samples!  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I saw this on another thread about new aerials:

http://maps.live.com/

Pull up Cobb's, center the map on the range, zoom in and hit "bird's eye view".  For everyone other than the local guys, this might be the next best thing to making the trip down to the course to see it for yourself.  It will certainly help you understand what we are talking about.  As you pan across, you will see black areas, just double-click on them and you will get the next aerial which might be from a very different time of year.  The 4th and 5th corridor looks to be taken during some of the flood repair.

FYI - the closest town to the course is Upper Darby, PA and the course is just to the northwest of the map that is pulled up.

[Kyle Harris]

I drew a 90 yard long reference line in the image. I believe the corridor for the 13th is longer than it appears in the oblique aerials.

[/Mucci]

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

Not to be an idiot, but are you sure that's 90 yards?  It seems quite a bit less.

Could you locate it just to the left of today's 7th green and show us how far it would extend?

Thanks

[Kyle Harris]

Cirba,

Any more scrutiny on Huge Puffy Wilson's routing abilities and the Philly mob will locate you about 90 yards left of the current 7th green...

...and about 6 feet under.

As per your request:

[Kyle Harris]

For the record, the spot to the left in the driving range is about 275 yards from the neighborhood of the old tee on the other side of the creek.

[Mike_Cirba]

Alright, alright...thanks Kyle.   That's a relief, especially considering the 30-40 foot incline away from the green.

I guess I'm becoming a nervous Nellie thinking about things that might go wrong or that wouldn't work given a restoration attempt.  

Man...at this rate I'm going to get myself a nice sturdy lean-to, a Coleman lantern, and some beef jerky,  and live Crump-like out on the old 17th tee.  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

I think there may be a bit of an issue. As I said, it's a 270 yard shot to the left point. Assuming that's the neighborhood of the middle or right side of the fairway, a slice would put the current 7th green in the flight line of any recovery from 13. I agree the slope does help mitigate that a tad... but with today's ball I could see some issues.

[Kyle Harris]

All,

I ran a comparison of widths to a course with which I am extremely familiar, and upon which I've hit many an errant shot on to adjacent fairways: Our Local Muni, the Venerable and Elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club.

Notorious for being a "hard hat" course, the fairway centerlines are roughly 40-50 yards apart.

I know Mike and Joe and probably Geoff have played there, so there's a comparison.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

I think there may be a bit of an issue. As I said, it's a 270 yard shot to the left point. Assuming that's the neighborhood of the middle or right side of the fairway, a slice would put the current 7th green in the flight line of any recovery from 13. I agree the slope does help mitigate that a tad... but with today's ball I could see some issues.

Great...can we blame it on Ab Smith or George Klauner?  

Could you show me where you're measuring from as the tee?

Also, there are some tall trees that have been planted/grown-up to the left of the current 7th that would further mitigate any problem.

Also, it does seem possible to route the fairway further left, perhaps just though fairway cut.  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

There's a little island type thing near where I spotted the tee.... if anything there's a +/- 10 yard variance from where I put the tee to either side of the peninsula.

[mike_malone]

 What intrigues about #13 is the feeling I get playing #18 at RG. Flynn has you bouncing away from where you want to go. It seems that the slope from right to left with the hill on the right was unique on this course. You try to stay right but can't.

[Joe Bausch]

Three more newspaper articles on Cobb's Creek, two from The Bulletin, for your dining and dancing pleasure.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I understand you found a second article mentioning Walter Travis's involvement?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I understand you found a second article mentioning Walter Travis's involvement?

Yes.  But before getting to that article, it is worth mentioning that Travis' name is mentioned in this headline from a 1900 Philly Inquirer article:

Headline: Champion Vardon a Visitor Here. but His Mission is Not to Lay out a Golf Course in Fairmount Park; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 02-10-1900; Volume: 142; Issue: 41; Page: 6; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Then many years later in this article by Verdant Greene:

Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 12-19-1915; Volume: 173; Issue: 172; Page: [16]; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Is this snippet:

[TEPaul]

Joe:

In August of 1915 there is an article in American Golfer by the editor (Travis) about an assignment which had been keeping him up nights to design a reverse structure for Crump and Pine Valley. He even included a few hole drawings in the magazine of what he'd come up with to date. But for some reason the idea was not followed up on. So obviously he was  around here and it seems like he and Crump must've slipped over to Fairmont Park and put in some time on the design of Cobb's Creek.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike,

At this point you could probably slip "Cirba" into the subject heading of this thread and no one would notice.  

[wsmorrison]

One of the articles that Joe collected mentioned the course (I think it was only 14 holes at the time) could be played in reverse.  I'll have to try and find it.  I printed out hard copies with some note tabs but put them in the Merion archives.  So it may take some digging.

[Joe Bausch]

One of the articles that Joe collected mentioned the course (I think it was only 14 holes at the time) could be played in reverse.  

Good memory Wayne!  Here is the citation, where I'm not certain but confident the author is Verdant Greene:

Headline: George Crump He Is the Master Mind and Ring Leader at Pine Valley Pine Valley May Open next Fall; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-03-1915; Volume: 172; Issue: 3; Page: 10; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Here is the first paragraph of that article:

[Mike_Cirba]

Then many years later in this article by Verdant Greene:

Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 12-19-1915; Volume: 173; Issue: 172; Page: [16]; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Is this snippet:

Joe,

Thanks for that.   Although we don't know the extent of the work, it does make it appear to be quite a bit more than the "looks good, nice job fellows" advice that Kyle suggested was likely a few days back.  

If you consider the timing, as well, it would be the point where the features were being finalized to some extent.   The course was originally supposed to open in Autumn 1915, yet had to wait til the end of May 1916.  

My guess is that it wasn't the routing, but some of the features, and if I had to speculate based on the timing and what's on the ground there,  I'd say it was some of the green construction and contouring.

Also,

As far as PV being reversible, that's a very interesting proposition.    

Perhaps that's another reason to clear trees back to Crump's original intent?  


By the way guys, has anyone looked at Cobbs on "Live Search Maps" from Microsoft?  

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=qt3pgh8thk4j&style=o&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=7837725#JndoZXJlMT1VcHBlcitEYXJieSUyYytQQSZiYj00MC44MTk2MjQ0MDYwMjA5JTdlLTc0LjE4ODEwNzI5NTc0MDElN2U0MC44MTg2NTU1ODYzNjk3JTdlLTc0LjE5MTMyODAxMTg3NzQ=

[Kyle Harris]

Objection, your honor.

Hearsay and conjecture.

-Sustained.

That article is a third person account of Travis's doings. I once heard that Macdonald had a significant impact on Merion.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

Objection, your honor.

Hearsay and conjecture.

-Sustained.

That article is a third person account of Travis's doings. I once heard that Macdonald had a significant impact on Merion.
 

Overruled Counselor...and completely irrelevant.  

It has already been firmly established that not a single contemporaneous account ever said Macdonald "designed" "laid out" "constructed" "architected" or "planned" Merion, but we now have two separate articles that attribute something approximating design work to Travis with Merion.  

[Kyle Harris]

Actually, upon reading the snippet more carefully it's more like:

"Hey, I heard this Travis guy is working at some golf courses for design, what's he been up to lately?
-"I don't know, but he's played in a few tournaments, bowing out early in a couple, and then destroying a local guy from Huntingdon Valley in another."

Ummmm...... come on.

Mike, I know, but is complete hearsay. Read the snippet carefully.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

"...although most of his time has been given to assisting in the laying out of public and other courses such as Cobb's Creek..."

This is the second article that mentions Cobbs Creek first among courses where Travis was spending MOST of his time helping with the layout during this period.  

If Travis was hanging round Cobbs and Pine Valley most of the time, do you not think the writer (TIlly?) would have gotten this account firsthand?

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