[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I certainly did notice the remarkably steep incline of the tee shot on #6.

Of course I can never prove this other than to say what I'm about to but if one studies carefully some of the hole iterations on the early stick routing of Pine Valley before Colt got there, one can't help notice a number of tee shots like that one at CC's #6.

Of course those early hole iterations with this kind of steeply inclining tee shot were probably Crump's.

There is the steeply inlining tee shot on #4 PV that got built but two iterations he had for #6 PV were far more dramatic and immediate and there were a few more like it on holes on the back nine which were never done.

Not to mention some of the steeply inclining second shots he designed such as on #2 and to some extent #18 and also what he planned for #11 had he lived.

Apparently Crump felt that one of the shot-testing components for good golfers was the ability to get the ball pretty high and also carry it a fairly long way too.

[Matt_Ward]

I have played Cobbs Creek at least a half a dozen times over the years and I have to ask those who might know -- has there been any real effort to upgrade / restore / modernize, whatever may be the PC word -- to actual work on the course?

Or has it simply been opened each and every year with minimum effort to do anything more than simply cut the grass?

Thanks ...

p.s. I really have enjoyed the course and with the right effort -- both $$ and improvements to some of the holes -- the course could well be a shining star.

[Joe Bausch]

I have played Cobbs Creek at least a half a dozen times over the years and I have to ask those who might know -- has there been any real effort to upgrade / restore / modernize, whatever may be the PC word -- to actual work on the course?

Or has it simply been opened each and every year with minimum effort to do anything more than simply cut the grass?

Thanks ...

p.s. I really have enjoyed the course and with the right effort -- both $$ and improvements to some of the holes -- the course could well be a shining star.

Matt, back many pages in this thread was the following from Mark Susko, general manager of the club:

We proposed to the city a few years ago what you mentioned above.  A full scale restoration to the original layout with expanded tees, new bunkers, clubhouse expansion and renovation and most importantly a state of the art irrigation system.  This would be paid for by a surcharge that would be added to the greens fees.  I think that it worked out to city residents paying a peak fee of $40 and non city residents (which make up over 80% of my play) would pay a peak fee of $65.  We presented this with plans for every step of the process and even had funding in place.  All the city had to do was sign off on it, of course they didn't citing several reasons that to me made no sense.

And, yes Matt, this course could be a shining star again.  There is no doubt in my mind.  If you or anybody else would like a detailed analysis of the course on site, let me know.  I'm sure MikeC and I would love to be tour guides.  Funny thing is, I've been out there some many times now after doing all this research that the guys in the shop recognize me and just hand me a key to a cart and say 'go for it'!  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe,

I'd like to know the reasons the City shot down the previous proposal from Meadowbrook/Liberty  as mentioned by Mark Susko.

[Joe Bausch]

While at the archives we also snapped a pic of a drawing for the irrigation system (1967).  It interesting to see the holes depicted back then, compared to 1916 and to now.  Of note is that the 18th on that diagram is completely different:  it plays as a dogleg right to the current 18th of Karakung.

[Eric Pevoto]

Joe,

I've been told that version of the 18th was used for the Phila. Bulletin tournament in the mid-50's.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I've been told that version of the 18th was used for the Phila. Bulletin tournament in the mid-50's.

Eric,

That's correct, although it does now seem that it continued in play for at least another decade.   Probably 18 at Cobbs was used during that time as the finale on the Karakung course.

[Matt_Ward]

Joe B:

If what the GM says is true -- was there minutes to the meeting in question concerning what happened / didn't happen?

I mean getting a surcharge enacted is not entirely unreasonable and with a detailed planning process to show what would happen with the added $$ I see no reason why such a situation would be turned down.

Does anyone play golf on the Philadelphia council and if so it's a good idea to touch base and get them moving.

In my experience as an elected official -- without an insider helping with the heavy lifting the load for all others will be extremely difficult to carry much forward.

And that would be shame for what Cobbs Creek could be.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe B:

If what the GM says is true -- was there minutes to the meeting in question concerning what happened / didn't happen?

I mean getting a surcharge enacted is not entirely unreasonable and with a detailed planning process to show what would happen with the added $$ I see no reason why such a situation would be turned down.

Does anyone play golf on the Philadelphia council and if so it's a good idea to touch base and get them moving.

In my experience as an elected official -- without an insider helping with the heavy lifting the load for all others will be extremely difficult to carry much forward.

And that would be shame for what Cobbs Creek could be.

Matt, we have lots of stuff in motion 'behind the scenes'.  We've chosen as a group to minimize or eliminate this talk from GCA.com.  I'm sure MikeC might comment further in a private e-mail to you.

[Mike_Cirba]

As far as the rapid, abruptly uphill elevation change on #6;

Wayne,

Thanks for posting that Flynn drawing.   It's a shame that second course was never built.   I'll have to get up there this summer.   But, even at 65 and 70 feet uphill in roughly the same yardage, I still think 80 feet in about 170 yards is greater than any course I'm aware of.

Anyone have a topper?

Doug,

I agree about some type of aiming point...a barber pole or something similar.   I also think the right side needs to be cut back and cleared to 1920 levels to make it more reasonable.

I also think a bell needs to be installed in the driving zone for players to ring after they've hit their second shots.   A replica of the Liberty Bell might serve nicely!  

Tom,

That's fascinating about Crump and the number of severely uphill holes his first routing iterations at PV contained.  It makes me wonder if Wilson and Smith and Crump were trying to spread the game to the masses with their public course or trying to build it in a way that would identify the best golfers!  

Certainly no one would ever claim that the original Cobbs Creek course was "dumbed down" architecturally because it was a public course!!     I can't even imagine how tough it must have been in 1916, where even the pro (Horace Gamble) at Cobbs drew a firestorm publicly for declaring it as difficult as Pine Valley, even with almost no artificial hazards!  

Matt,

I'd reiterate with Joe said but would simply add that I can tell you that Mark Susko and the guys who have been there the past few years have clearly and passionately tried to make a positive difference there.   Even walking it yesterday most of the greens are in tremendous shape.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike / Joe:

If I can assist please count me in as a supporter of the mission.

Would love to hook up with people and play the course again this spring.

[Mike_Cirba]

Some things to note from the 1967 irrigation drawing, especially as compared to the 1915 original;

1) We really need to find out if this single-row irrigation system was proposed or if this is a "as built" drawing.  Perhaps Mark can weign in there?

2) The 1st and 2nd holes were built more "along" the North 71st St. road that runs near the 1st green than out and back to it that appears on the original 1915 drawing.   That explains the additional yardage of both.

3) As we suspected, the creek configuration on #4 has changed, likely due to reconstruction after flooding.  

4) Check where the 5th tee is on the 1967 map, which seems higher on the hill towards 17.

5) Joe ,from the original drawing it appears that you walked off the back left of the 12th green straight into the trees to the 13th tee about 30 yards back there.   I think the remnants of the bridge we see is the other one after teeing off. (see the two bridges on the original drawing)

6) The green on 14 was to the left side of the split in the creek that runs to McCalls.  It was almost parallel to the 13th green, perhaps just one greensize closer to City Line Avenue.

7) Check out the position of the 11th tee, which is much closer to the back of 10 green.

Check out the tee for 13, which is tucked up behind the 12th green.

9) Check out the position of the 17th tee!!


Matt,

Welcome aboard...if the weather holds maybe we can make it sooner than later.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

It wouldn't surprise me if those guys were trying to make Cobb's Creek hard, particularly Crump. I think he (and some others of his friends) thought that was a good thing to train Philadelphia golfers to be as good as they could be and the feeling back then was they needed that kind of course to accomplish that. I think they thought of it as something of an inspiration to golfers particularly young ones as around the late teens it was felt that some of the original Philly tournament players were getting a bit old and they needed to inspire a new young wave of golfers. Tillinghast mentioned this a few times around that time.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Yes, it's pretty fascinating, isn't it, how Tillinghast and the others in the Philadelphia school saw a direct correlation between the poor play of the city golfers in regional and national competitions and the dearth of real "championship" courses in the city.    Which is of course why Pine Valley was built in the first place!

I'm not sure their theory was 100% true or even whether a direct correlation can be drawn between the type of course one plays and the quality of the golfer, but I'm glad their fallacious ideas resulted in the wonderful courses they built while trying to elevate the status of the competitive golfers in the city!  


I'll be out of town and away from the computer for the next two days.  Later all...

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

It should be noted just how lucky we are to have all of these materials (photos, articles, topo maps, routing, irrigation maps, first hand accounts, etc.) to work with.  I have a feeling there are many others on this board who have tried to undertake a similar task at other courses with much less to work with.

[Kyle Harris]

Some irrigation questions:

What are the sizes of the mains and laterals and where is the pump located? Is it a wet well or run from city water?

Is the present 18th irrigated?

I assume the system is manually operated from satellites and that the red lines on the map indicate the zones.

Are there snap in valves near the greens?

Where are the pressure problems and are they related to the extended laterals down the fairways that aren't looped, such as the 3rd hole?

There seems to be a bit of a bottleneck in the 17th/4th hole corridor and depending on which side the pump is on, the other would probably have pressure issues. I'm guessing the pump house is on the City Ave. side of the golf course, but then again, if Karakung is also a part of this irrigation system it could be between the two courses.

[MSusko]

Kyle,

Please see answers below.

Some irrigation questions:

What are the sizes of the mains and laterals and where is the pump located? Is it a wet well or run from city water?

All water is from the city.  I think the mains are 10 inches and the laterals are 6 inches, not sure though.

Is the present 18th irrigated?

Yes.

I assume the system is manually operated from satellites and that the red lines on the map indicate the zones.

There are no satellites.  Most tees and all greens have a valve to turn on the heads around them.  Some tees are still quick cups.  All fairways are either quick cups or single heads the need to be turned on one at a time.

Are there snap in valves near the greens?

Yes, all 37 greens on the property have snap valves.  We installed them over the last two years.

Where are the pressure problems and are they related to the extended laterals down the fairways that aren't looped, such as the 3rd hole?

We have pressure problems all over the property.  We installed two booster pumps two years ago but we can still only have a few fairways on at a time.

There seems to be a bit of a bottleneck in the 17th/4th hole corridor and depending on which side the pump is on, the other would probably have pressure issues. I'm guessing the pump house is on the City Ave. side of the golf course, but then again, if Karakung is also a part of this irrigation system it could be between the two courses.

The pump for Olde course #3-#18, Karakung #14-#18 and the driving range is located behind the 10th green on the Olde Course.  The pump for the rest of the property is behind the 6th green on Karakung.  There are several cut off valves around the property used to isolate the water when breaks happen, which is pretty much everyday.

Hope this helps.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Interesting stuff about the irrigation system.   I believe Kyle is somewhere working on hydration formulas to fix things this evening.  

One other thing about the 1967 irrigation map that bears interest that I forgot to mention the other day.

It seems the corridor that supported the old 6th hole (as well as the par three 12th) was still open fairway, and not yet overgrown.   Anyone who has been in the forest looking for the 12th tee in recent weeks probably shares my amazement at how much things can grow in 40 years.

[wsmorrison]

What do you make of the 5th tee position as indicated on the 1967 piping plan in relation to today's location?  The position of the 16th tee seems farther up the hill than I thought and would seem to be awkwardly placed relative to the 14th.  Perhaps my memory doesn't serve me well this evening.

[Mike_Cirba]

What do you make of the 5th tee position as indicated on the 1967 piping plan in relation to today's location?  The position of the 16th tee seems farther up the hill than I thought and would seem to be awkwardly placed relative to the 14th.  Perhaps my memory doesn't serve me well this evening.

Wayne,

Have you begun your 2008 revelry early?  

Seriously, the 16th 14th position is ok, but I'm really curious as well to find the location of that 5th tee.  

If nothing else it would be improved visibility, but also today fraught with trees to the right-side fairway.  

It does look intriguing, nonetheless.   If the weather holds, I may just head over there tomorrow and I'll have to see if I can find it.

[Kyle Harris]

Interesting stuff about the irrigation system.   I believe Kyle is somewhere working on hydration formulas to fix things this evening.  

One other thing about the 1967 irrigation map that bears interest that I forgot to mention the other day.

It seems the corridor that supported the old 6th hole (as well as the par three 12th) was still open fairway, and not yet overgrown.   Anyone who has been in the forest looking for the 12th tee in recent weeks probably shares my amazement at how much things can grow in 40 years.

Mike,

Surprising comment from you regarding how quickly things grow. Do you remember the mountains of the coal region 40 years ago as compared to today?

[mike_malone]

And the fairway on the right of#5 before the creek starts is seen on the irrigation map. Now that is rough.

[Mike_Cirba]

And the fairway on the right of#5 before the creek starts is seen on the irrigation map. Now that is rough.

Mike,

I got to start the New Year off right by playing 18 at Cobb's Creek this morning.   It was a glorious walk.

Today I took a look at where that 5th tee likely was and the one spot that made sense is a flat spot just short right of today's 17th green, about 20 yards to the side.  

If the tall trees on the right hillside were taken back to their pre-1970 lines as it appears the case was originally, it would make for a very, very daunting tee shot, and I'm guessing it would play about 475.

I also was struck yet again today by how naturally almost all of the greensites just blend into their surrounds, and how many of them are at fairway grade.   Everytime I get out there I find new things and I think I'm falling in love with what it could be.

Because there were only a handful of people on the course, and since nobody was playing the 6th while I was waiting on the 16th tee, I also became probably the first person in over 60 years to play the old 12th hole from the original hillside tee in the woods, lofting a 9-iron between branches onto the back right of the green.  

[Joe Bausch]

Sounds fun Mike.  Why didn't you call me so you didn't have to play with yourself.  

So what happened when you tried to play the 17th from the original tee?!

[Mike_Cirba]

Sounds fun Mike.  Why didn't you call me so you didn't have to play with yourself.  

So what happened when you tried to play the 17th from the original tee?!

Joe,

Sorry..it was a whim with a window of weather opportunity and when I posted last night that I was thinking of heading there tomorrow nobody responded so I figgrerd everyone was busy.    

After my success on the old 12, I wanted to play 17 from the original tee as well, but that just happened to be the part of the round when I caught up with the foursome in front of me and a twosome in a cart coming up from the rear.    

I'm thinking both will be a lot easier to play if we can get some of those trees removed...permanently!    

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