[Mike_Cirba]

My skepticism from yesterday is fading, but I can't help but wonder if Wilson moving up in the pecking order had something to do with George Crump going Henry David Thoreau at Walden around that time...

Did you get my voicemail?

Kyle,

I think that's reasonable speculation.   Wilson and Crump were very good friends and it would almost seem unreasonable that if Wilson spent six months on the CC site that Crump wouldn't have come up and helped him a bit, especially since he was involved in building a little golf course of his own at the same time.

Also, SIX MONTHS ON SITE for Wilson?!?!!??   Man, there might not be a blueprint because it sounds to me like he and Ab Smith were getting their fingernails dirty!    

I haven't gotten your voice mail yet...got a housefull and I'll catch up with you later today.

By the way, did you see where C.B Macdonald said that Pine Valley was the greatest course in this country?

[Kyle Harris]

Yes, I did.

And my voicemail has another nugget of information that you should find interesting...

Apparently Wilson was whoring himself out all over Philadelphia. Perhaps the Huge "Puffy" Wilson thing isn't too far from the truth.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, I did.

And my voicemail has another nugget of information that you should find interesting...

Apparently Wilson was whoring himself out all over Philadelphia.

Without listening to your voicemail yet, let me guess...

Philmont??

[Kyle Harris]

Yup, two holes on the South Course... the 8th and the 11th. I can see the 11th with the Par 3 wedged into the hillside.

Also some mentioned of Bucks County CC in Langhorne (Middletown CC today) and a few Alex Findlay NLEs.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yup...kinda figgered.  

You know, this news about Wilson being onsite for six months has me less optimistic that there will be a blueprint found.  

Hugh evidently did it in the dirt.

just saw your addition...Did you say Wilson also worked at Buck County (Langhorne) and some NLE Findlay's?   WHich ones?

[Kyle Harris]

Yup...kinda figgered.  

You know, this news about Wilson being onsite for six months has me less optimistic that there will be a blueprint found.  

Hugh evidently did it in the dirt.

That's the point I was trying to make yesterday. Both Crump and Wilson worked on the land - finding a plan by them would be a holy grail, but at the same time would indicate some form of detachment from the project on their parts. I figure any plans the park would need would be for tree clearing and fill requirements.

No, sorry, was kinda vague with that - they were just written about extensively, especially Middletown, which I understood to be Findlay and then George Fazio.

[Mike_Cirba]

Actually fellows...in January 1917...

Billy Bunker gives Hugh Wilson and Henry Strouse credit for the first course at Philmont.

He also credits Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith as the "primary architects" of the Cobbs Creek course.

He also confirms that J. Franklyn Meehan along with Warren Webb as the designers of the first nine holes at Lulu...

AND

For those of you with any doubt about whether Wilson laid out Merion, confirms yet again that;

"Both of the Merion Cricket Club courses were built under the direction of Hugh WIlson, who ALSO (capped for those parsing words at home ) laid out the Seaview course."

no mention of CB or Whigham, unfortunately.  

[Mike_Cirba]

This is research heaven...

"Hugh Wilson, who built the two fine courses at Merion believes every club would have better putting greens if it were not for the craze for lightning-fast greens.    The reason why it is necessary to seed the greens every year is that excessive cutting prevents the grass from seeding, and it is necessary each year to put seed into the green.   He says clubs would be much better satisfied if the grass on the putting greens were allowed to grow a little longer instead of having them like the surface of a billiard table."

And, just for anyone getting tired of the Philly bent to this thread, in the same 1917 article, proclaims that "Donald Ross, who has laid out more and better golf courses than anyone in the country..."

Also..

In 1917. the yardages for the holes at Cobbs Creek were;

1 - 462 par five
2 - 300 par four
3 - 300 par four
4 - 150 par three
5 - 400 par four
6 - 380 par four
7 - 425 par four
8 - 355 par four
9 - 387 par four
3150 par 36

10 - 205 par three
11 - 517 par five
12 - 130 par three
13 - 543 par five
14 - 150 par three
15 - 315 par four
16 - 280 par four
17 - 443 par four
18 - 380 par four
2963 par 35

Total 6122 par 71

[Mike_Cirba]

Can you imagine what and where those named as the architects "laying out" the course were coming from?

Those were men who had nothing to lose by what they were thinking and trying to put on the ground.

These were not men who would have been thinking about what golfers thought about what they did in a business sense----these were men who were not concerned about the "business" of golf course architecture.

These were guys who probably felt they were doing the city and pulbic golf a favor.

We're having our first person to person meeting of this architecture archive at Far Hills this coming Monday.

I'm going to mention this research on Cobbs Creek and it's possible we could sweep together a "design evolution" report on this course that will bring together architecture, history, public golf in the 20th century, sociology etc, etc.

THIS could be really good!

Tom Paul,

In case you missed it over the weekend, I think it's important to note that Hugh Wilson evidently worked on the Cobbs Creek layout for SIX months!   And, Ab Smith gave up all his Sunday's for the period to go and work on the course.

This was hardly some light undertaking for these guys and they took it very seriously.   I think the USGA archive folks need to understand this.

More from Tilly;

"The Golf Association of Philadelphia, the Executive Committee, and Messrs. Wilson and Smith have given their services gladly and freely in an effort to make the new course the finest public course in the United States.  At no time have they attempted to interfere in the slightest with the Park Commissioners in the running of the links.  They have always been ready to give whatever aid they can."

[Adam_Messix]

Mike & Group--

Congratulations on your finds, this thread is great stuff and why I enjoy Golfclubatlas so much.  Keep it up!!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike & Group--

Congratulations on your finds, this thread is great stuff and why I enjoy Golfclubatlas so much.  Keep it up!!!!

Adam,

Can you relay that to my fiance and boss?  

They both seem much less enthused.  

[Bill Hagel]

Also..

In 1917. the yardages for the holes at Cobbs Creek were;

1 - 462 par five
2 - 300 par four
3 - 300 par four
4 - 150 par three
5 - 400 par four
6 - 380 par four
7 - 425 par four
8 - 355 par four
9 - 387 par four
3150 par 36

10 - 205 par three
11 - 517 par five
12 - 130 par three
13 - 543 par five
14 - 150 par three
15 - 315 par four
16 - 280 par four
17 - 443 par four
18 - 380 par four
2963 par 35

Total 6122 par 71

Mike:

Okay these yardage make a lot more sense to me as I was scratching my head at some of the distances that were seen in the early course layout schematic (from 1915 before the course was opened) found earlier in the thread - I was even using the Google Maps distance tool to try to locate the tees for 9 and 13 based on the hole yardages given on that map.

For example to extend 9 to 430 yards one would need to tee off in the middle of the (then) 6th fairway.  To shorten the 13th to 450 yards the tee would need to be a ridiculous walk from the 12th green (Mark S. there is our answer).

I also believe 150 yards (not 175) is a better yardage based on where I think the tee and green was on that lost 14th hole, and 205 yards for No. 10 seems more reasonable than the 235 shown on the map.

Only thing - Hole 2 at 300 yards seems a bit shorter than what it should be - could that be a printing error?

Were these yardages from the Joe Bunker article?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

George Klaudner was my uncle. Therefore I demand that I be paid a   portion of every green fee at Ty Cobb Creek since his death. I demand this.

[Joe Bausch]

George Klaudner was my uncle. Therefore I demand that I be paid a   portion of every green fee at Ty Cobb Creek since his death. I demand this.

Tommy Trojan: how 'bout we pay you a big compliment.  

[Mike_Cirba]

George Klaudner was my uncle. Therefore I demand that I be paid a   portion of every green fee at Ty Cobb Creek since his death. I demand this.

Tommy,

George Klaudner was the Green Committee Chairman at Aronimink in those days and evidently had a lot to do with the construction and design features of one of the early iterations of Aronimink's course, of which I believe there were four....five if you count RTJ Sr.'s version.  

It's interesting you also mention Tyrus Raymond Cobb as he was one of a bunch of baseball players and other sports celebs who visited/frequented Cobbs over the years, including on Conrad McGillicuddy.  

I'm hoping to find I'm not also a disgrace to them memory of what George Klaudner, George Crump, Hugh Wilson, and Ab Smith did at Cobbs Creek or I'll have to move out of the city.    

[Kyle Harris]

Was Klaudner involved with Tillinghast's version of Aronimink?

At what locations were the Aronimink courses?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Joe, Bite your tongue!!!!


Mike, Uncle George (1) (Bahto being Uncle George #2) and I thank you for all of your support. Now go restore the F-ing course!

[Mike_Cirba]

Was Klaudner involved with Tillinghast's version of Aronimink?

At what locations were the Aronimink courses?

Kyle,

Ummm....I'd have to check, but I think Klaudner worked on Findlay's version.   Malone can probably tell you where they all were...I'd have to dig deep and I have a headache.  

Tommy,

We're trying.   We're probably all daft but we're going to try.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe, Bite your tongue!!!!

Did the Notre Dame leprechaun shop for shoes at the same place as The Grinch?




 

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill,

The yardages are from a "Billy" Bunker article summing up the success of the first year at Cobbs.   The print is a bit tough to read so it's possible that the 2nd hole number is wrong.   Do the numbers I listed add up to 6122?

Bill/Tommy,

In the same article, it discusses the popularity of the course among major league baseball players;

"Every major league baseball team that comes to Philadelphia has several, and in some cases, a dozen golfers among its members.   Any morning during the stay of these teams in town, these players may be seen at the course."

Kyle,

A bit more on Aronimink from Billy Bunker in 1917;

"The second oldest golf club in the city was the old Aronimink golf club, which for years maintained a nine-hole golf course in West PHiladelphia.   Their first golf was played over the old Belmont Cricket club course and either six or seven holes were used and the holes were made of tomato cans."

"Aronimink has had many architects, including George Klauder, Cecil Calvert, A.W. Tillinghast, Harry Vardon, and Edward Ray.  The latest changes were made by Donald Ross.   Ross has made all of the recent improvements to the PHiladelphia Cricket Club course.   He is also the architect of the new Gulph Mills club."

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Go ahead Joe. Make fun, but next year when we hoist that NCAA trop......forget it!

But where did you get that picture of Tom Paul dressed as the Grinch?

Mike, So what about some timeless photos of the place?

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe Bausch,

You think we'd be ok if you stick up one or two of the old aerials I sent you for a day or two?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Better yet, send me the full size copy so I can add it to my collection. In return, I'll send you both something that will spin both your heads around 360 degrees ala Linda Blair.

[Mike_Cirba]

Better yet, send me the full size copy so I can add it to my collection. In return, I'll send you both something that will spin both your heads around 360 degrees ala Linda Blair.

Tommy,

I'll send them from work tomorrow (they're on my work laptop), unless Joe has them handy and can get them to you tonight.

I'm ready for some head-spinning.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Better yet, send me the full size copy so I can add it to my collection. In return, I'll send you both something that will spin both your heads around 360 degrees ala Linda Blair.

Tommy,

Forgot I wasn't going to be in the office today.  I'll send tomorrow unless Joe has a moment to put them up today.

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