Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Mike_Cirba]

It shouldn't be very difficult to get an original topographical map of the area to understand the degree and placement of contour(s) prior to the US Army coming in and leveling the joint.

Of course, where does one get the fill to recreate that is a large question.  

Also, just recalled Bill's query as to whether George Fazio was the one who did the re-routing in the 40s.

My guess is that's just legend, simply because I know GF was not involved in any golf course design work until the early 60s, and I was told by his mentor that even then he was very uncertain about his ability to work in this field.  He would have also been about 30 years old in 1942, hardly the venerated golf "expert" he was to become later.
 

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm betting we can even find said TOPO map at the Fairmount Park Commission archives!!  

I also guarantee that in some dusty, undisturbed corner of the room there is a rolled up tube of paper with the original course schematic on it.

With any luck, it will have Crump's blue pencil markings over Wilson's red.  

Or visa versa.  

As long as it's not signed "advised by CB Macdonald & Hugh Whigham" I'll be satisfied.  

[Bill Hagel]

It shouldn't be very difficult to get an original topographical map of the area to understand the degree and placement of contour(s) prior to the US Army coming in and leveling the joint.

Of course, where does one get the fill to recreate that is a large question.  

Also, just recalled Bill's query as to whether George Fazio was the one who did the re-routing in the 40s.

My guess is that's just legend, simply because I know GF was not involved in any golf course design work until the early 60s, and I was told by his mentor that even then he was very uncertain about his ability to work in this field.  He would have also been about 30 years old in 1942, hardly the venerated golf "expert" he was to become later.
 

I wonder if his nephew would know?  Does Tom frequent this Board?

[Joe Bausch]

It shouldn't be very difficult to get an original topographical map of the area to understand the degree and placement of contour(s) prior to the US Army coming in and leveling the joint.

Of course, where does one get the fill to recreate that is a large question.  

Also, just recalled Bill's query as to whether George Fazio was the one who did the re-routing in the 40s.

My guess is that's just legend, simply because I know GF was not involved in any golf course design work until the early 60s, and I was told by his mentor that even then he was very uncertain about his ability to work in this field.  He would have also been about 30 years old in 1942, hardly the venerated golf "expert" he was to become later.
 

I wonder if his nephew would know?  Does Tom frequent this Board?

Ask Mike for TF's cell phone number.... he has Tom in his "fave 5".  

Oh no, I hope this doesn't start taking this thread way off topic.  

[BCrosby]

Bob

What might be the tax advantages for a business in the city to benefit from their participation in a reconstruction project like Cobbs ?  Is this something that the city might offer a reduction in their city taxes for participation ?

Willie -

We are structuring things so contributions will be treated as charitable donations to a 501(c)(3) organization. We have set up a conservancy for that purpose.

Atlanta (like most cities I would think) is not able to cut special tax deals without council approval. Nobody wants to go that route.

Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

Willie -

We are structuring things so contributions will be treated as charitable donations to a 501(c)(3) organization. We have set up a conservancy for that purpose.

Bob

Bob,

I think I can speak for both Bill and I in saying that we'd really like to hear more details on how you were able to structure contributions in that manner.   It sounds very much like a win/win situation.  

Thanks for any additional info..

[Eric Pevoto]

Also, just recalled Bill's query as to whether George Fazio was the one who did the re-routing in the 40s.

My guess is that's just legend, simply because I know GF was not involved in any golf course design work until the early 60s, and I was told by his mentor that even then he was very uncertain about his ability to work in this field.  He would have also been about 30 years old in 1942, hardly the venerated golf "expert" he was to become later.
 

Mike/All--

I've spoken with an "old-timer," a good player, who played the city courses for 50 years or so.  His recollection is that Fazio came in to do work before Cobbs held the Philadelphia Daily News tourney.  That would have been early to mid 1950's.

According to Finegan's GAP book, Fazio was representing the Fairmount Park courses in 1955.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

It's now mostly about #13. I suggest those of us with an interest get back out there and knock around fairway location for that hole.

   I read some interest in using the creek on the left, even possibly having an alternate green over there.

Mike,

Thanks for the teaser on that.  My suggestion was to use the original fairway corridor for the old #13 but wishbone the end of the fairway with one leg going to the old #13 green (current #8 green) and the other leg to the old #14 green.  You could then place the old #14 tee between the fork where it was originally placed.  The alternate greens would enable you to play the old routing or keep the current #17 and play every green along the creek including the old 14th.  I speculated that if Wilson (and others) had known they would be forced to use the current 17th, they would have designed #13 along the creek ala #13 at Augusta (assuming there were no other issues like flooding).

Having 19 holes would also allow you to shut a hole down on the course for restoration without disrupting play.

[Kyle Harris]

It's now mostly about #13. I suggest those of us with an interest get back out there and knock around fairway location for that hole.

   I read some interest in using the creek on the left, even possibly having an alternate green over there.

Mike,

Thanks for the teaser on that.  My suggestion was to use the original fairway corridor for the old #13 but wishbone the end of the fairway with one leg going to the old #13 green (current #8 green) and the other leg to the old #14 green.  You could then place the old #14 tee between the fork where it was originally placed.  The alternate greens would enable you to play the old routing or keep the current #17 and play every green along the creek including the old 14th.  I speculated that if Wilson (and others) had known they would be forced to use the current 17th, they would have designed #13 along the creek ala #13 at Augusta (assuming there were no other issues like flooding).

Having 19 holes would also allow you to shut a hole down on the course for restoration without disrupting play.

You guys are starting to straddle that "restoration vs. ego" line a bit here. In order to make that speculation, I think one must first answer the question why Wilson, et al. felt the need to have the golfer make a walk through the valley in which the 17th hole is currently routed.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike/All--

I've spoken with an "old-timer," a good player, who played the city courses for 50 years or so.  His recollection is that Fazio came in to do work before Cobbs held the Philadelphia Daily News tourney.  That would have been early to mid 1950's.

According to Finegan's GAP book, Fazio was representing the Fairmount Park courses in 1955.

Eric,

How's things?   Great to hear from you!  

That's really interesting, and makes sense, particularly considering that Fazio wasn't really an "architect" back then.   As such, it seems he just utilized existing greensites instead of building new holes, and actually did some clever little things to make it work reasonably well.  

Thanks!

[Joe Bausch]

Just in case some would like to see part of the January 9, 1916 article (penned by "Joe Bunker") in the Philadelphia Inquirer where George Crump's name is mentioned together with Cobb's Creek, here it is:



The "last-named club" in that article is Philmont.

[Phil_the_Author]

For those who have been wondering, I am pretty certain that "Joe Bunker" is Tilly.

It was quite common for golf columnists to use pseudonyms during that time (e.g. - American Golfer) and for a variety of reasons, not least of which was the pressure to declare golf writers to be professionals as would happen in 1916-17.

There are several reasons for believing that this is Tilly's writings. Most importantly is how he discusses courses that he is currently working on. For example he mentions in one of the articles that the Old York Golf Club "wisely engaged a golf course expert..."

This is typical of how he often wrote of his work in the 3rd person at that time. There are actually sveral other examples of this in just the 3 articles Joe sent.

There has also been discussion of another series of articles written under the name "Verdant Green."

I don't believe this was written by either Tilly or his father B.C. who also authored a number of articles as well.

The styles are radically different and there was no reason for Tilly to write a column under 2 different pseudonyms for the same paper at the same time. In addition, He was working quite hard on design work during this period (1912-1918) traveling as far away as Florida, Texas, Oklahoma & California.

Remember, at this time phones were still a luxury even for businesses.

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Thanks for weighing in.   As we were discussing yesterday, the writing style sure seems to bear Tilly's imprint, and there were very few men who had the breadth of knowledge of Philadelphia golf, the clubs, and the people, who might have written that, with Tilly being primary among them.

From my perspective, if Tillinghast said that Wilson, Crump, and Smith laid out Cobb's Creek, and having the personal relationship(s) with each of those men that he had, that's about as good a proof as one could ever have of the verity of the design attribution.

We still intend to continue our research, and plan to visit the  city and park archives this month, seeking a Holy Grail that would be in the form of a hand-drawn blueprint, and or other contemporaneous written accounts in the official city records.

[mike_malone]

 Can you think of a way that this would be happening without gca.com?

  Thanks, Ran.

[Bill Hagel]

There has also been discussion of another series of articles written under the name "Verdant Green."

Yes but Verdant Greene sure sounds like another pseudonym.  Verdant meaning green or grassy, and Verdant Green was a literary character.  The Adventures of Mr. Verdant Green is a novel by Cuthbert M. Bede, a pseudonym of Edward Bradley (1827–1889). It covers the exploits of Mr Verdant Green as an undergraduate freshman at Oxford University.

[Bill Hagel]

I did some digging today at the local library and it looks like the 14th green was still in action during an inter-city match (NYC v. Philly) in 1921 (with the Cobbs guys putting a thrashing on the Van Cortlandts 6 matches to 1).

So at least we know now that the 17th was constructed between 1921 and 1928 (National Publinks).

[Mike_Cirba]

So at least we know now that the 17th was constructed between 1921 and 1928 (National Publinks).

Bill,

Unfortunately, we then know that George Crump had no part in that particular hole.  

[Dan Herrmann]

This is damn cool stuff.

Mike - When can we all do a walkabout at Cobbs?  

By the way, check out page 34 here:  http://photoarchive.usga.org/mbwtemp/AGAPR1915.pdf
(Warning - suitable for broadband internet connectivity only!)

   

[TEPaul]

By the way, the other man mentioned as "laying out" Cobbs Creek in that article, A.H.(Ab) Smith, was the brother of W.P. Smith who appears to be one of Crump's closest friends and also one of two men (with Father Simon Carr) who seemed to be closest to Crump and what he was doing and what he was thinking about the course through his years of creating Pine Valley.

W.P. Smith appears to have kept something of a dated chronicle on various holes about what Crump was wanting to accomplish.

W.P. Smith's hole by hole recollections of Crump's intentions along with the hole by hole recollections by Father Simon Carr of Crump's intentions together make up what I call "The Remembrances" which the 1921 Advisory Committee that was charged with finishing off the course essentially to Crump's intentions and while working with Hugh Alison used.

W.P Smith and his brother A.H (Ab) Smith were also part of that early group of friends and golfers that frequented Atlantic City CC before the creation of Pine Valley. Those men were also one hand for the birth of the birdie at Atlantic City CC.

W.P Smith was a really good player and probably the best of the lot.

[Willie_Dow]

Let's not forget that Buddy Marucci is a close "buddy" of Tiger.

[TEPaul]

Willie:

According to Buddy Marucci they aren't exactly close buddies but they have sort of kept up over the years.

I would have to say that of the three finalists in the three consecutive US Amateurs that Woods' won, Marucci was by far and away the most gracious and articulate loser. That probably wasn't lost on Woods and may be something he'll not forget.

There is another interesting trivia point about Marucci in that 1995 US Amateur and that is he played more holes during that amateur than anyone else ever has in a US Amateur.

I think Marucci was in three or perhaps even four overtime matches on his way to the finals against Woods which ended on the 36th hole.

All in all it was a pretty amazing Centennial US Amateur back at Newport CC where it all began and it definitely took Marucci to another level in the second half of a successful amateur career.

It also put him on his first Walker Cup, and then he made the next one too. His Walker Cup record is pretty impressive and then of course he became the captain of the Walker Cup which was successful for USA, and he will almost inevitably be the captain of the Walker Cup again when it comes to Merion next where Marucci is the Greens Committee chairman.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Tom,

I read recently that Buddy has already been named captain of the next Walker Cup.

http://www.usga.org/news/2007/october/2007_76.html

[Phil_the_Author]

Evidently the origins of Cobbs Creek go back further than has been thought. In his February 1909 monthly column under his pseudonym "Hazard" Tilly wrote, "It is quite possible in the near future that Philadelphia will in the enar future offer a public golf course in Fairmount Park to her people. The project has been boomed in the columns of the newspapers..."

In this piece there are gems such as, "The genuine interest of the general public has caused the question to be brought before the city council..."

also "The mayor is quite in sympathy with it and it seems that only the approval and cooperation of the park commissioners are now needed..."

also "Fairmount Park really offers splendid opportunities, for the turf is good and the general conditions are quite in harmony with the golfer's ideals..."

Maybe you guys can see what the Inquirer has in its archives even as far back as the fall of 1908...

[Joe Bausch]

Evidently the origins of Cobbs Creek go back further than has been thought. In his February 1909 monthly column under his pseudonym "Hazard" Tilly wrote, "It is quite possible in the near future that Philadelphia will in the enar future offer a public golf course in Fairmount Park to her people. The project has been boomed in the columns of the newspapers..."

In this piece there are gems such as, "The genuine interest of the general public has caused the question to be brought before the city council..."

also "The mayor is quite in sympathy with it and it seems that only the approval and cooperation of the park commissioners are now needed..."

also "Fairmount Park really offers splendid opportunities, for the turf is good and the general conditions are quite in harmony with the golfer's ideals..."

Maybe you guys can see what the Inquirer has in its archives even as far back as the fall of 1908...

PY, many thanks for the info.  I've been searching the Inquirer back in those years and I've not found anything yet around those times you indicate.  But I'm going to keep looking, and will try other newspapers of that era too.  Perhaps I need some other search terms.  I've got some ideas right now...maybe more later.  

[Joe Bausch]

PY and all; it did not take long to get more info about how early the desire for Philly to have a public course was written about in the Philly Inquirer.  Just a few years earlier than the 1909 article!  I've found an 1895 article indicating that somebody proposed to the Fairmount Park Commission that golf should be available to the public, but it was shot down because they didn't think there was space.  How 'bout that!

More later.