Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I don't seem to have it unless I missed it in the 5 Miles Walk article.

Look at the attachment with the headline "Drives and Putts" that I sent in an e-mail that started with:  "Well, Geoff, you are right.  HW was involved."  It is in the 5th paragraph.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Thanks for all of your time and work, Joe.

[Joe Bausch]

Got another article!  Here is the citation:

Headline: Drives and Putts Being Gossip About Golf and Golfers; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-09-1916; Volume: 174; Issue: 9; Page: 21

And guess who else was involved with Cobb's?  No great surprise, I think:  Crump.

Here is the relevant part of the article:

"One of the leading members had a great deal to do with the municipal course in Cobb's Creek Park, which was laid out by A.H. Smith, George Crump, Hugh Wilson and others, and he was greatly impressed with what the experts did."

[Mike_Cirba]

George Crump, Hugh Wilson, and AH Smith designed Cobbs Creek?!?!?!?

Maybe this will get Tom Paul over here and out of the self-referential GCA celebrities threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

[Joe Bausch]

George Crump, Hugh Wilson, and AH Smith designed Cobbs Creek?!?!?!?

Maybe this will get Tom Paul over here and out of the self-referential GCA celebrities threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

I invited TP to CC/R&O'b part 1... perhaps he'll attend part deux.  

[Mike_Cirba]

He wants research??...

We'll give him stinkin' research!!    

This is the golf course nerd equivalent of finding that Elvis Presley co-wrote "A Day In The Life" with Lennon and McCartney!!!  

[Rich Goodale]

Mike

Since you started this thread, you have the power to rename it.  Id suggest:

"Tom Paul"

I think the geezer is irked that Cowley and Hancock and Mucci and Pallotta and Naccarato and god knows who else have their own My Space style tributes and he does not.  Humo(u)r him.

rich

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe,

Great work!

I wonder what Billy Casper Golf  and the Fairmount Park Commission are thinking about all this,let alone, the Inquirer, Golfweek, Golf, Sports Illustrated and Golf Digest?

This could go national!

[Bill Hagel]

He wants research??...

We'll give him stinkin' research!!    

This is the golf course nerd equivalent of finding that Elvis Presley co-wrote "A Day In The Life" with Lennon and McCartney!!!  

"I heard the news today OH BOY; 18 holes in West Philadelphia"

[JESII]

Very interesting guys...just remember, Dave Moriarty and Tom MacWood had more evidence that linked CBM to Merion than this...

[Mike_Cirba]

Very interesting guys...just remember, Dave Moriarty and Tom MacWood had more evidence that linked CBM to Merion than this...

No, they didn't.  

"...Cobb's Creek Park, which was laid out by A.H. Smith, George Crump, Hugh Wilson and others, and he was greatly impressed with what the experts did."

I don't recall ever reading anything that said Macdonald and/or Whigham "laid out" "designed" "planned" or anything else with Merion.

[Bill Hagel]

From the Thomas MacWood article on George Crump right here on the GCA webpage

"A. Haseltine Smith: Huntingdon Valley. Brother of Wm. P. Smith. A very fine golfer, Smith won the first Philadelphia Am in 1897, and again in 1911. He was a very active competitor in regional events. Played on the Lesley Cup team in 1912. Insurance broker and an associate of Haseltine Smith & Co. Smith claimed to have had a hand in the design of Pine Valley, Huntingdon Valley and Cobbs Creek. Tillinghast credited the Smith brothers with the concept of the ‘birdie’ on one of their sojourns to Atlantic City."

[JESII]

Got another article!  Here is the citation:

Headline: Drives and Putts Being Gossip About Golf and Golfers; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-09-1916; Volume: 174; Issue: 9; Page: 21

And guess who else was involved with Cobb's?  No great surprise, I think:  Crump.

Here is the relevant part of the article:

"One of the leading members had a great deal to do with the municipal course in Cobb's Creek Park, which was laid out by A.H. Smith, George Crump, Hugh Wilson and others, and he was greatly impressed with what the experts did."

In 1916, George Crump was an expert?

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

He was certainly an "expert" golfer, and had already been working on designing and building PV for a few years by then.

Why would this be odd?   Who else in Philly would GAP have considered as golf and course experts but Wilson and Crump at this time?      

[JESII]

Mike,

This is why I suggest being careful. Dave and Tom did produce some very interesting information and were ripped for it...although I do not have it fron tof mind, and I'm not likely to go look...

Where in that quotation does expert golfer have anything to do with anything? This is about laying out a golf course...let's not force it...

[mike_malone]

 I don't care who gets the credit for Cobbs. The real issue continues to be that what was done on the ground back in those days was among the best courses in the country. Our efforts are focused on uncovering the routing and restoring the course to its rightful place. Whoever routed it did a great job.

  I imagine the connection between GAP and the Fairmount Park Commission was much stronger then than now.  I wonder whether GAP is even worth involving today.

[JESII]

They are!

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

  You should have Joe Bausch email you the articles he has found. My sense is that noblesse oblige was a big factor in those days. Today I'm not sure that value is as prevalent.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sully,

I understand your point, but it seems that GAP at the time was very civic-minded and put together a few men they considered "experts" to "lay out" Cobbs Creek.

From contemporaneous accounts that Joe has been providing, they included Wilson, Smith, Crump, Klaudner, and possibly others and the construction work was then overseen by Fairmount Park Commission Engineer Jesse Vodges.

Ultimately, I'd like for us to get deep into the Fairmount Park Commission archives, because I bet it would be really, really interesting, including possibly an original plan.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I really like the names attributed to the writers of those articles: Verdant Green and Joe Bunker.

[JESII]

What sort of help do you think you might need from the Fairmount Park Commission?

[Mike_Cirba]

What sort of help do you think you might need from the Fairmount Park Commission?

For archives, probably just access to their public records.

For this project, TBD but probably better off behind the GCA screen at the moment.  

[mike_malone]

 It's their course. Our hope is get them to see it as a treasure of the city which ,if restored ,would provide a more secure stream of revenue for a long time. Now , the feeling is that they see it as a cash cow not worth improving.

[Joe Bausch]

I really like the names attributed to the writers of those articles: Verdant Green and Joe Bunker.

Wayne thinks Joe Bunker was probably Tillie.  If we could prove that, then there would be little doubt who these 'experts' were as he would have been in the know, eh?

[JESII]

What's your plan?

Tell me about this "more secure stream of revenue"?