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DMoriarty

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1550 on: May 26, 2012, 07:12:47 PM »
Regarding the issue of Cobb's first professional, according to Peter C. Trenham on the Trenham Golf History website, when Horace Gamble retired in 1935, Gamble "had been the professional at Cobbs Creek since the day the course opened in 1917."   

1917?  My guess is that Mr. Trenham has the identity of first professional correct, but is off by a year regarding when the course opened.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1551 on: May 26, 2012, 07:50:55 PM »
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba



I also see where Tom MacWood questions my judgment of his interpretation of the William Evans article.   Perhaps if I just show the parapraphs in question I can explain better. 
 
Now, Tom reads the following January 31st, 1915 article as indicating that only Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, and George Klauder designed the golf course.   I think he makes a basic mistake here, as the course was already routed seven months prior to then as I will show in a moment.   But here are the two paragraphs back to back, and I think you'll see what I mean.   
 
We see in the first paragraph clear indication that the course has been routed as Evans tells us that the creek is used "on six holes as hazards guarding the greens".
 
Then, in the next paragraph, we see the mention of the three men who "will aid" (future tense) "the park engineers in laying out the course", which clearly means the construction process by that late date.   



That is exactly what I said, the course had been routed by late 1914. So the only other interpretation suggest that Evans is saying the three men are in charge of construction, and not design. Is that your interpretation?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1552 on: May 26, 2012, 09:00:38 PM »
Those summer figures represent a foursome every 6 minutes for 11 hours a day. You guys want grass on your golf course, right?


Kyle,

You can't go by math alone, you have to also factor in "daylight"

If groups began teeing off at 8:00 which was reasonable, the last tee time, if rounds took 3.5 hours, would be 5:30 pm, for roughly 9.5 hours of tee times.

At 40 golfers per hour, with no starter's time or gaps, that's 380 golfers per day, max, if everything worked to perfection.
Less, if things weren't so perfect.

Kyle Harris

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1553 on: May 26, 2012, 09:14:16 PM »
Those summer figures represent a foursome every 6 minutes for 11 hours a day. You guys want grass on your golf course, right?


Kyle,

You can't go by math alone, you have to also factor in "daylight"

If groups began teeing off at 8:00 which was reasonable, the last tee time, if rounds took 3.5 hours, would be 5:30 pm, for roughly 9.5 hours of tee times.

At 40 golfers per hour, with no starter's time or gaps, that's 380 golfers per day, max, if everything worked to perfection.
Less, if things weren't so perfect.


Exactly. And I was presuming a not unreasonable for daylight beginning time of 6AM!

I think it's likely groups were sent off with as many as 6 or 7 or 8 golfers!

Keep in mind there were reports of pace of play being absolutely atrocious - hour wait on a hole.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1554 on: May 26, 2012, 09:16:41 PM »
Those summer figures represent a foursome every 6 minutes for 11 hours a day. You guys want grass on your golf course, right?


Kyle,

You can't go by math alone, you have to also factor in "daylight"

If groups began teeing off at 8:00 which was reasonable, the last tee time, if rounds took 3.5 hours, would be 5:30 pm, for roughly 9.5 hours of tee times.

At 40 golfers per hour, with no starter's time or gaps, that's 380 golfers per day, max, if everything worked to perfection.
Less, if things weren't so perfect.


Exactly. And I was presuming a not unreasonable for daylight beginning time of 6AM!

I think it's likely groups were sent off with as many as 6 or 7 or 8 golfers!

Keep in mind there were reports of pace of play being absolutely atrocious - hour wait on a hole.

That would alter the numbers considerably. !

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1555 on: May 27, 2012, 03:41:39 PM »
From the October 1962 article on Public Golf in Philadelphia from Golfdom Magazine. . .
In 1961, according to Renn's annual report to William H. Noble, Jr., director of the Fairmount Park Commission, there were 233,547 rounds played at Philadelphia's five 18-hole courses.
No breakdown per course.   

The article provides some of the positives of public golf in Philadelphia, noting that Cobb's had hosted important recent local tournaments and long been an "incubator course" for some of the private clubs, and discussing programs to train caddies (even though they were not used on the publics.)   It also provides an interesting snapshot of some of the problems facing public golf in Philadelphia around this time, including issues of keeping grass on tees and greens, the need for temporary greens, funding problems, and even vandalism. 

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1962oct74.pdf

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1556 on: May 27, 2012, 04:57:25 PM »
^^^
OT - I liked the story about the "cross-country golfer"

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1557 on: May 27, 2012, 06:31:34 PM »
^^^
OT - I liked the story about the "cross-country golfer"


Maybe he should be given credit for designing the proposed composite course.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1558 on: May 28, 2012, 01:44:54 PM »
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba



David,
 
Thank you very much for posting the link to that terrific article.   It's a great find and I appreciate you posting it here.
 
The man in question, Garrett Renn, who was superintendent of the Philadelphia city golf courses for a number of years until his untimely death in 1968 in an automobile accident, was a golf course architect in his own right.
 
He, along with George Fazio in 1953, were responsible for the clever re-routing of the holes at Cobb's Creek after the US Army was allowed to use approximately 15% of the total course acreage for an Air Defense base during the height of the Cold War.   Oddly, the base itself only seems to have been there for 5 years...I suspect that the low ground along the creek didn't provide adequate radar coverage, and it was shortly after a General visited the site that it closed.   For some reason, I suspect cost, the holes were never put back to the original configuration after the Army left, and a driving range was built on that spot.  
 
While we all certainly all believe that restoring the original routing of Cobb's Creek is highly desirable and that the 5-6 lost/compromised holes were some of the very best and most renowned on the golf course, the re-routing job Renn and Fazio did was extremely clever and used/maintained all the original greens, thus allowing a full restoration to be still possible today.   Interestingly, one could still play today's routing after a full restoration if anyone chose, or for special occassions.
 
Garrett Renn was also responsible for designing a number of other golf courses in the Philadelphia area in the 50s and 60s including Little Mill (NJ), Spring Mill (Ivyland, PA), Cranbury (NJ), Latona (NJ), Limekiln (9) (PA), Mountain View (NJ), Wedgwood (NJ), and a few others NLE.  All of his courses are very playable and soundly constructed.
 
One of his first jobs was the complete restoration of Brigantine GC (NJ) from the original plans of Stiles and Van Kleek.   The course which opened in 1927 closed just a few years later during the depression.   Two decades later Renn unearthed Brigantine from an overgrown, lost golf course to a very enjoyable course that is still a wonderful place to visit today.   I have many great memories of playing there in my youth during family vacations.
 
I have had communications with his son and granddaughter in the past, and I plan to share this article with them, letting them know you found it.

From a prior note from his granddaughter, talking about her dad (Garrett Renn's son).  
 
He remembers fondly visiting and helping with the courses but was too young to remember which ones or all their names.  He believes his father was appointed to Superintendent of the Philly public courses in 1952.  He was also very close with George Fazio and from what my dad said he said, taught Mr. Fazio “the business of moving dirt” as they called it.  He remembers Mr. Fazio calling every morning at 6am for years, as he consulted with my grandfather on many of his projects.  My dad also said that Brigantine was one of my grandfathers first projects.  It was originally built in 20’s but had become completely overgrown after the depression.  He obtained the original plans and restored it to its original layout.
 
Some additional information: Garrett Renn was a member of the PGA.  He did his apprenticeship at Philmont Country Club, under Leo Diegle (we think).  He grew up in Frankford and as a boy, played Ashbourne, Frankford-Toresdale, and Melrose .  With his brother, who was also a golfer on Frankfords golf team, was invited to play Merion and Pine Valley which he loved and inspired him to build courses himself. He was married to Ann and had 7 children, who he moved to the old mansion on Juniata golf course where they lived.  
 



Have a nice holiday,
Mike
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 01:48:36 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1559 on: May 29, 2012, 06:28:05 AM »
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba



I also see where Tom MacWood questions my judgment of his interpretation of the William Evans article.   Perhaps if I just show the parapraphs in question I can explain better. 
 
Now, Tom reads the following January 31st, 1915 article as indicating that only Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, and George Klauder designed the golf course.   I think he makes a basic mistake here, as the course was already routed seven months prior to then as I will show in a moment.   But here are the two paragraphs back to back, and I think you'll see what I mean.   
 
We see in the first paragraph clear indication that the course has been routed as Evans tells us that the creek is used "on six holes as hazards guarding the greens".
 
Then, in the next paragraph, we see the mention of the three men who "will aid" (future tense) "the park engineers in laying out the course", which clearly means the construction process by that late date.   



Based on this, the Inquirer article, and Lesley's commendation I interpret this article as saying the three men were primarily responsible for the design of the course, past tense. The only other interpretation suggests the three men were in charge of construction, and not design. Is that your interpretation?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1560 on: May 31, 2012, 11:32:42 AM »
Recently Mike and I met with Ed Abrams of KYW 1060 Newsradio as well his TeeItUpPhilly.com.  From that interview will be a segment on Cobb's Creek as part of the station's "Golf Report".  It will be broadcast tomorrow and Saturday at the times below:

KYW Golf Report:
<runs fri:   9:10a, 12:10p, 3:10p, 6:40p, 8:40p, 11:10p>
<runs sat:  5:10a, 7:40a, 10:40a, 3:10p, 5:10p>

The full podcast will not be available until tomorrow, and here is the location it will be:

http://www.teeitupphilly.com/?p=1988

It will also be the topic of the CBSPhilly golf blog:

www.cbsphilly.com/golfblog
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1561 on: June 08, 2012, 02:41:30 PM »
From Mike C:

All,
 
The following Golf Association of Philadelphia report from 1922 sheds a bit more light on the overall play numbers at Cobb's Creek.
 

 

 

 
 
Those with an interest in the history may also find the following fascinating.   In the year 1900, a GAP appointed Committee of men experienced in design and construction which included Rodman Griscom of Merion, George Fowle of Philadelphia Country Club, and Samuel Heebner of Philly Cricket laid out a proposed nine-hole course for the city of Philadelphia near Belmont Mansion which was never built.
 
Thirteen years later, another GAP-appointed committee consisting of Hugh Wilson, George Crump, Ab Smith, and Joseph Slattery also recommended the same site in question, referring to it as Plot C.   Also interesting that the Fairmount Park Engineer, Mr, Jesse Vogdes, worked with each of the GAP-appointed groups over this thirteen year period, and subsequently supervised construction of the Cobb's Creek project for the Fairmount Park Commission, which opened in 1916.
 

 

 

 

 
Thanks,
Mike
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 03:30:10 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1562 on: June 08, 2012, 03:23:14 PM »
I think the total is up to sixteen designers that at one time or another a local sports writer said laid out the golf course:

Wilson, Smith, Klauder, Carr, Lesley, Meehan, Sargent, Flynn, Crump, Travis, Slatterly, Vogdes, Pepper, Corson, and throw in Geo. Thomas and Ben Sayers even though there is no mention of them. That must have been one very large table they all sat and collaborated around in a most friendly effort displaying an ethos of remarkable collaboration and brotherly love.


Should we now add Joe Flannery to the list? That would make seventeen architects....and counting.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1563 on: June 08, 2012, 03:31:03 PM »
Edited above:  Slattery instead of Flannery.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1564 on: June 08, 2012, 03:37:44 PM »
Thanks...back to sixteen.

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1565 on: June 09, 2012, 10:45:13 AM »
A unique theme of the "Philadelpia School of Architecture" was pretty much the adage "The more the better."

Apparently some people not from Philadelphia and not that familiar with that unique theme of the Philly School of Architecture do not understand that and apparently never will.

Hence, the last few posts from Ivory Tower, Ohio's Tom MacWood.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1566 on: June 09, 2012, 03:06:16 PM »
I disagree...clearly the adage was quality over quantity.

Crump started with the crazy idea of 18 men designing 18 holes and within a few weeks said screw this, give me HS Colt's phone number. Merion Cricket didn't waste any time and went for the creme de la creme from the very beginning in Macdonald, Whigham and Barker.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1567 on: June 09, 2012, 03:20:37 PM »
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba



All,
 
I haven't had the opportunity to read to much in the past day or so, but I did see a picture of the old "Tie-Fighter" green as Geoff Walsh dubbed it and noted that Patrick Mucci instantly saw the same comparison that I did...to the old 12th at Garden City.   It also bears close relation to a similar greensite Walter Travis did at Columbia.   With that in mind, some months back when I was still on the site I speculated that this might have been a contribution by Walter Travis to Cobb's Creek, simply because it is such a complete "one-off" from virtually every other greensite created there, most of which are very low-profile.   I further speculated that this might have been a particularly troublesome area for construction, as most of the land right around there slopes away very steeply, and is the site of where very visible earthmoving took place (for instance, to create today's 13th tee).  
 
Now, as the guy in charge of features, I'm thinking that William Flynn was at least physically and mentally capable of creating something like this, particularly with Travis's instructions.   Do we know?   No, of course we don't, but we know both Flynn and Travis were involved and have documentation providing those facts.
 
What I find a bit "interesting" is that since that picture was posted, after Patrick's response some now seem to see value in that hole.   If memory serves, it was posted previously by the same folks and used as an object of ridicule.   At that time, when I posted pics of the greens at Garden City and at Columbia I was assured that I was indeed an idiot, out of my mind, and probably disengenous, as well.  ;)  ;D
 

Actually the 12th green at Columbia was created by HH Barker, who worked with Travis on the revolutionary redesign of Garden City. Ironically when Travis redesigned Columbia for the 1921 US Open he removed the mounds. Barker was still in the States through 1915, should we add him to the list of CC architects, he would add a certain amount of gravitas would he not?

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1568 on: June 09, 2012, 03:36:42 PM »
"Crump started with the crazy idea of 18 men designing 18 holes and within a few weeks said screw this, give me HS Colt's phone number. Merion Cricket didn't waste any time and went for the creme de la creme from the very beginning in Macdonald, Whigham and Barker."


Tom MacWood:

I suppose you forgot to read the committee meeting minutes of MCC or just forgot what they say. MCC specifically recorded they did not bring Barker in and they did not pay him. The real estate developer who had nothing to do with MCC brought in Barker and paid him. In the same month Griscom got Macdonald and Whigam to come to Ardmore for a day to look at the property.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1569 on: June 09, 2012, 03:52:00 PM »
We all know who was calling the shots, and it sure as hell was not a real estate developer who didn't even play the game, and wouldn't have known HH Barker from a circus barker.

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1570 on: June 09, 2012, 04:07:53 PM »
"We all know who was calling the shots, and it sure as hell was not a real estate developer who didn't even play the game, and wouldn't have known HH Barker from a circus barker."


It is just amazing to me how you just speculate those kinds of statements right out of the blue. First of all, what do you know about Joseph Connell (or one of his partner's, Nickolson?). Do you know anything about Connell and what he did around here and who he knew?

I'm quite certain you don't.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1571 on: June 09, 2012, 04:35:35 PM »
Tom M, in your post 1569 you touch on something that always jumps out at me with these Philadelphia guys.   To their credit, they realized when they were in way over their heads and they knew who were the real experts, and they went out brought in these experts to show them the way.  As Hugh Wilson put it, he realized the value of the advice and opinion of CBM and he sure as hell wasn't going to ignore it.   It is a bit ironic, considering the proprietary and provincial approach taken by their modern defenders.

As for TEPaul's latest, isn't it interesting how, when it suits TEPaul's purposes, H.G.Llyod was a "captain of industry" and was manipulating everything and everyone from behind the scenes, yet when it comes to Barker's involvement no one at Merion could have possibly have had anything to to with him having been involved.  The double standard at work again.  They just assume everything they want to be true and deny everything they don't like.

I know quite a bit about Connell, I was the one who brought him forward in these discussions, and the one who figured out the details of the initial transaction, and I know who he was and what he (and his family) did in Philadelphia.  I also know that Merion and Connell had been negotiating previous to Barker's involvement at Merion and would find it very surprising if Merion had no idea that Barker was being brought in.    

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1572 on: June 09, 2012, 04:37:22 PM »
Back to Cobb's . . .  now that Joe and Mike are again addressing the issue, I wonder if they will ever answer my questions about their claim about the "first professional" and some of my other questions and concerns.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1573 on: June 09, 2012, 04:38:37 PM »
It was reported in more than one Philadelphia paper that Lloyd was responsible for bringing in Macdonald, Whigham and Barker prior to consummating the deal, which makes perfect sense. Lloyd and his cronies would have known those three and Travis were the top men; a non-golfer would have no clue.

But enough about that, lets get back to Cobbs Creek. I don't think anyone wants this to devolve into another Merion thread, although I could be wrong.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1574 on: January 19, 2022, 11:23:35 AM »
Today was a landmark day in the history of Cobb's Creek and Philadelphia golf.   You should be hearing more specifics from media outlets shortly.


I'm bringing back this old thread as an example of the type of collaborative "crowd-sourcing" that made today possible.   I would also like to acknowledge that prior related threads on Cobb's Creek all the way back to 2002 started by Geoffrey Walsh, Kyle Harris, Joe Bausch, Mayday Malone, Jason Mandel, Tom Paul, Wayne Morrison, Matt Davenport and perhaps most importantly, Steve Shaffer set the wheels in motion that led us to this juncture.  Ironically and wonderfully, these past 15 years have sort of mirrored and paralleled the original efforts made by Philadelphia golfers seeking a public golf course to be built in the City of Brotherly Love.   Finally, a huge shout out to the Cobbs Creek Restoration and Community Foundation without whom none of this would have happened and the associated real-world work of John Burnes, Chris Lange, and the entire Maguire Family who turned our idealistic dreams into reality.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 12:03:57 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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