Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Bill Hagel]

Can someone explain how I post a photo on a reply.  

I want to show a picture I recently took at Cobbs?

Thanks

[Powell Arms]

Can someone explain how I post a photo on a reply.  

I want to show a picture I recently took at Cobbs?

Thanks

Bill,

Welcome.  Check your instant messages - I sent you some info on posting photos.

Powell

[Joe Bausch]

Can someone explain how I post a photo on a reply.  

I want to show a picture I recently took at Cobbs?

Thanks

Bill, if you click on the 'help' icon, it will give you some info.  Basically you have to put the picture on a site that is web accessible, then you get it into this bulletin board by putting it into the text of a message by starting a line with 'img' in brackets followed by the web address of the picture followed by '/img' in brackets.

If you don't have a site to put the picture, e-mail it to me and I can post it for you.

[Michael Blake]

Would love to meet everyone there tomorrow.  I haven't seen Cobbs Creek in at least 10 years.

But, a long night's in store at McGillan's tonight and a long day tomorrow of raking, blowing, and burning leaves in the yard.


Have fun.

[Bruce Katona]

Powell posed several great questions and I would like to add a few as I've read this with great interest but can't fit in the tour........

1. Let's assume that the group comes away with consensis this is a terrific idea and needs to move ahead quickly.

2. Who and what then forms the working groups to move the project forward ? A full committee to decide everything will never get the job forward.....perhaps breaking into working groups that focus on:

a. design/designer interview and selection
b. business plan - pitch to Fairmont Park Commission
c. advertising/meia presentations to get the idea out to the  
    public as this is a public asset.
d. Identifying and recruiting a big-time Political supporter or
    politician to champion this cause all the way through to
    get it done and implemented.
e. finance - how are the funds raised and demonstrate
    how the project will benefit the greater public good.

The working groups than report to an Executive Group which can make quickly needed decisions, then the group as a hole.

Within GCA, there should be enough of us with the above experience to fill these groups....I'm happy to help.

[Bill Hagel]

2.  Your question about the location of the green for the current #8/old #13 intrigues me.  I've looked at Google maps to see what I think is Cobb's Creek running at the edge of the driving range, which makes your question so good.  But I've played w/ some guys at McCall that indicate the creek goes through their course!  Can that be true?

The streams flowing through McCall are actually small tributaries to Cobbs Creek.  But Flynn maximizes their use to protect #4 (front of green); #5 (left side of fairway); #7 (topped tee shots); #8 (behind green) #9 (right of green) #10 (topped tee shots) #12 (in front of green), #13 (topped tee shots) #14 (in front of green),  #15 (right of green), #16 (topped tee shots) #17 (behind green).

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bruce

Since Billy Casper Golf is the new management company, I doubt that our input will be other than on the actual golf course and its history and possible restoration. They are the ones who have to deal with the Fairmount Park Commission and ultimately City Council and the Mayor. They have submitted a Response to City's Request For Proposal indicating that they are willing to spend money to improve the conditions at the courses that they will be managing.

[Bruce Katona]

Steve: Peter Hill and his team are solid professional managers and if they came up with a business plan to successfully run the operation, they will be able to implement a capital improvement program to get the job done correctly.....it is, however, very nice to bring to th table some political/fiscal clout.......it's amazing how much better a concerned group is heard when they have these two weapons in their pockets.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Concerning political clout, if the Golf Ass'n of Phila, the Phila Publinks Ass'n and the PA Golf Ass'n provide some input, that would be great.

We haven't seen the details of Casper's winning bid yet other than what was reported by Joe Logan:

www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/11541461.html

[Bruce Katona]

Steve: That's what you are looking for, perhaps along with either some one or a small group of someones to write a check to get the process started (analysis and design fees). If someone from GAP can call in a favor for pro-bono design fees, you have instant credibility.

[Kyle Harris]

This is going to take "Jersey Muscle..."

Said with the appropriate stereotypical Brooklyn accent...

...and implying the USGA.

[Joe Bausch]

I have more to add to this discussion from a GCA lurker.  I'll relay it to those interested tomorrow.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Can't wait to finally meet you guys.  See you tomorrow at 10.

[wsmorrison]

We met in cold and windy conditions.  Mark Susko showed us around the original routing and was a great resource to compliment the research of Mike Cirba.  It was real eye-opening to see some of the lost hole corridors.  We then met with Ron Prichard at a local tavern for an interesting roundtable discussion.

The motley crew:



L to R;  Mike Malone, Doug Braunsdorf, chief conspirator Joe Bausch, Mark Susko, Bill Hagel, Mike Cirba, Steve Shaffer and Geoffrey Walsh


There's a tee in here somewhere:

[Kyle Harris]

Cobb's has taken the GCA ass pic to new heights... err... depths...

[Mike_Cirba]

It was really a fun, very interesting day.

One thing I learned was that Cobbs has even more potential than I even knew and the original routing would have included some dynamite holes, including probably two island greens (the 4th and 12th).  I'd also like to really commend Mark Susko's ongoing and very impassioned efforts as his love and enthusiasm for what Cobbs could be is obvious and palpable.

As we look collectively at avenues (and sources) for funding restoration and refurbishment efforts, I think it's important that we not overlook local sources.

These wide words concerning stewardship from A.W. Tillinghast seem a bit prescient and are just as relevant in 2007 as they were in 1919;

"Unpleasant things may be written about golf and all other sports and all other happenings of life, for that matter, but certainly nothing can be gained by unnecessary publicity."

"However, if the Cobb's Creek Public Course is not being governed and conducted as it should be, the Park Commission
should be advised by the heads of Philadelphia golf and above all else no stone should be left unturned to provide a golf course for the people of Philadelphia who cannot afford a membership in a golf club and these public privileges should be offered with as little expense as may be possible."

Great to see all you guys!  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Many thanks to Mark for hosting us today.  I had an absolute blast!

I'll post my thoughts when I have more time but the visit only fueled my fire to restore this course.

In addition, I found two interesting links to possible aerials of the course:

http://www.brynmawr.edu/iconog/aero/maero.html
(search for #6806)

http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/Bah/dam/rg/ys/r13ys8e.htm
(under "Parks" section)

I'm not sure if either will add any value, but both should be publicly accessible.

It was great hanging out with all of you today.  Let's keep the momentum going on this project!

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I think this just might be what we are looking for!

http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu/photos1940s/delaware_1937/delaware_1937_photos_jpg_800/delaware_110437_ahl_60_5.jpg

You can zoom in on this (just click once to zoom, you can then scroll back and forth) good quality aerial from 1937.  It looks clear as a bell to me that the current #4 green was on that first island.

It also shows that the left hand fairway on #5 was in play and my guess is that the tee was probably up by #17 green.

I may not get any sleep tonight.

[Kyle Harris]

What's the golf course to the northwest of McCall?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

No idea, Kyle.

Take a look at the green complex on the current #10 at Cobb's Creek.  I have now dubbed that the "Tie Fighter green" and I will make it my mission to have that fully restored.

[Kyle Harris]

Haha, there's a lot of green shapes that are interesting there. I also love the width.

The 5th hole is my favorite on the current routing and I think playing it as a the Par 5 that seems to be shown would be incredible. I've doodled holes like that before.

The first hole also seems a bit shorter than today, has the green been moved? Looks like a few greens were moved... like 4?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

The first green is right where it exists today, but you may be focusing on Karakung #1.

Follow the road straight north and it is sitting there on the left hand side with two bunkers front right.  However, #2 tee seems to be further back to me.

[Mike Sweeney]

If Mike or anyone has the original routing posted somewhere, can you repost it?

Thanks

[Kyle Harris]

Two NLEs on that aerial. One NW of McCall and one in the upper right along City Ave.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I thought some would find it interesting if I took the Google aerial photo of the course now and compare it to what I think is close to the routing from the 30's as described by Mark and Mike.  I know these diagrams sure helped my comparison.

Here is "Cobb's Now", where I've used rectangles to indicate where tees are, and circles for greens.  Remember that holes 1-5 really haven't changed much, hence I cropped that part of the figure.



And here is approximately the routing in the 30's (with the holes numbered properly) on top of the current layout:



I just love the original routing.