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DMoriarty

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1400 on: May 20, 2012, 02:21:29 PM »
Thanks, Dave

So Ben Sayers was in Philly from at least June 1915 to September 1916?  Hmm.  Wonder what he was doing all that time, other than being glad that he missed his planned voyage over on the Lusitania......?

Not necessarily in Philly.  He had an extensive golf club export business and was quite a famous player.  I don't know where he was, but I'd be surprised if he didn't do some traveling for business and promotional purposes.  He may have had influence over changes made at Merion and Cobbs (or at other courses for all we know) but of a leap from he visited his son to thinking he must have influenced of the design of Cobb's or the changes made at Merion during that brief period.

As an aside, one thing he reportedly did while in the US was to shoot a 69 at Merion West.  Nice golf for an elderly gentleman of 59 or 60.

Quote
As for the "Alps" at Merion, my view from ~90 years onwards is that it was a ghastly hole and nothing at all like its template at Prestwick.  Your view from 90 years onwards is different.  Vive la difference!

My opinion may not be that different than yours.  I don't know the hole at Prestwick from personal experience but it is hard for me to imagine that this hole was like it.  But the opinions of those there at the time seem to have been different.   I just balk at either you or me substituting our respective opinions for for those who were there.

Quote
As for George Sayers, someone who can finish in the top 30 or so in a US Open is not chopped liver vis a vis golf.  The facts that he grew up playing golf on the template of all templates (i.e. North Berwick West), and was the son of one of the best of the very few credible Scottish golf course architects of the early 20th century (Dad Ben) make me speculate that he had "background."  Why exactly do you disagree with this speculation?

Had he pursued it, George Sayers might have been a very good designer, greenskeeper, whatever.   But I've never seen anything indicating he pursued it.   I could very well be wrong about this which is why I asked, but so far as I know he was a golf instructor.  I just balk at speculating about his influence over designs when there no indication he even ever concerned himself with such things.  

Quote
Keep well, young man.

You too.
________________________________________________________

Tom MacWood,  I tend to agree with you in your last post, and suspect that whatever connection he had with Cobb's was short lived and promotional.  

That said, for the sake of an accurate record, while the caption in that article referred to him as an instructor, I think the text did mention that he would be in charge of instruction at Cobb's.   I don't know whether one derived from the other. _______________________________

Paul Thomas,  I am sorry I typed your name wrong.  I changed it.   No disrespect intended.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 03:02:47 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rich Goodale

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1401 on: May 20, 2012, 02:31:20 PM »
Ben Sayers made a small fortune selling his brand of golf clubs. I doubt he was in need of work at a public golf course. One of his biggest clients was the huge department store Wanamaker's, out of Philadelphia. You will find his clubs in their ads in the Philly papers at the time.  

Therefore, what, Mr. MacWood?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Tom MacWood

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1402 on: May 20, 2012, 02:31:28 PM »
As far as I can tell there is no evidence he had any association with Cobbs Creek other than being involved with the ceremonial opening of the course. I'm not even sure the course even had a professional. I know they had a superintendent when the course opened, but it certainly wasn't Sayers. This is just another example of adding another big name to the courses history in order to boost its reputation.

On a related note I was surprised to learn Ben Sayers & Co. is still around. They claim to be the oldest golf equipment manufacturer in the world.

http://www.bensayers.co.uk/?page_id=62

Rich Goodale

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1403 on: May 20, 2012, 02:36:00 PM »
As far as I can tell there is no evidence he had any association with Cobbs Creek other than being involved with the ceremonial opening of the course. I'm not even sure the course even had a professional. I know they had a superintendent when the course opened, but it certainly wasn't Sayers. This is just another example of adding another big name to the courses history in order to boost its reputation.

On a related note I was surprised to learn Ben Sayers & Co. is still around. They claim to be the oldest golf equipment manufacturer in the world.

http://www.bensayers.co.uk/?page_id=62

Non-answer, and not even a good "non-answer" Mr. MacWood.  Anybody with a computer and Google knows that.  Please try harder next time.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

DMoriarty

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1404 on: May 20, 2012, 02:56:17 PM »
Rich I think he may have been responding to my post.  

There are parallel discussions going on here.  One about your speculation regarding the Sayers' influence over design, and the other about the claim that Ben Sayers was the first professional at Cobb's Creek.  Information relevant to one isn't necessarily relevant to another.  

There of course is also a discussion about whether or not the "tome" overhypes Ben Sayers limited involvement at Cobb's, and whether those laudably working for the restoration have overhyped the history of the course.  

And of course I am still waiting for someone to acknowledge that 933 rounds in a day on a single golf course sounds like a bit of an exaggeration.  Are we talking about Cobb's Creek, or Big Rock Candy Mountain?  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1405 on: May 20, 2012, 03:03:50 PM »
David Moriarty:


Thank you so much for you Post #1396. I believe that post pretty much sums up and reflects a really comprehensive example and explanation of what anyone who reads GOLFCLUBATLAS.com needs to know about David Moriarty and why you seem to have so many problems on here with so many people and it seems to be increasing diametrically on this thread in the last few days. If you don't think you have all these problems with so many on here then why in the world do you constantly complain on here that you do, as you just have on #1396?

I suggest everyone read #1396 carefully, and comment on it or don't comment on it however you see fit, because to me it indicates that David Moriarty actually THINKS that almost all responses to his posts revolve around HIM (in his word 'ME") and not what he says. If that is not the best example of complete egocentrism than what is?

And further, in his own words in that post he seems to be telling us all he is only trying to explain to us what "reason" is and how it should be used (apparently in a competent discussion). Does this man actually think he has somehow cornered the market on REASON and how to use it too?

Read his #1396 and I think you will see what I mean----eg how and why he thinks our responses to him are only about HIM and not about the things he says on here! Is this some kind of condition that leads to phobias about "victimization?"

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1406 on: May 20, 2012, 03:08:04 PM »
"Why not include Tilly on the list, and Father Carr, Howard Perrin, Robert Lesley, Fredrick Taylor, and maybe even the mysterious Howard Toomey, and perhaps JB McGovern and Alex Findlay, who were both based in Philly I believe. Why not, there is as much evidence those men were involved in the design as there is Travis, Thomas and Crump, which is to say no evidence. In the end we could make the CC story the greatest story of collaboration in the long history of the highly collaborative Philly School."


Tom MacWood:

Because I have never seen any evidence or mention that they were involved in CC as I have with the others on the list. If you have some contemporaneious evidence those you named were mentioned back then I would love to see it and what it is.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1407 on: May 20, 2012, 05:08:18 PM »
Tom:

Someone was in charge of that committee, right?

So yes:

A was in charge of this
B in charge of that.
C knocked D with a wiffle ball bat

But who dolled out those assignments and held accountability and oversight?

Who determined what resources were applied and set up the construction schedule? What happened when setbacks occured?

That golf course didn't get built all willy nilly.

What you're really saying is that the Philadelphia School delegated and divided responsibility between talented individuals - much like many of today's architectural firms.

In a thread full of craziness, I thought this was a pretty interesting observation by a guy working on a course that has a chance to change the Florida landscape.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 05:12:25 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1408 on: May 20, 2012, 06:47:51 PM »
"Why not include Tilly on the list, and Father Carr, Howard Perrin, Robert Lesley, Fredrick Taylor, and maybe even the mysterious Howard Toomey, and perhaps JB McGovern and Alex Findlay, who were both based in Philly I believe. Why not, there is as much evidence those men were involved in the design as there is Travis, Thomas and Crump, which is to say no evidence. In the end we could make the CC story the greatest story of collaboration in the long history of the highly collaborative Philly School."


Tom MacWood:

Because I have never seen any evidence or mention that they were involved in CC as I have with the others on the list. If you have some contemporaneious evidence those you named were mentioned back then I would love to see it and what it is.

Why does that matter? There is no evidence Travis, Thomas or Crump were involved.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1409 on: May 20, 2012, 06:57:24 PM »
"Why not include Tilly on the list, and Father Carr, Howard Perrin, Robert Lesley, Fredrick Taylor, and maybe even the mysterious Howard Toomey, and perhaps JB McGovern and Alex Findlay, who were both based in Philly I believe. Why not, there is as much evidence those men were involved in the design as there is Travis, Thomas and Crump, which is to say no evidence. In the end we could make the CC story the greatest story of collaboration in the long history of the highly collaborative Philly School."


Tom MacWood:

Because I have never seen any evidence or mention that they were involved in CC as I have with the others on the list. If you have some contemporaneious evidence those you named were mentioned back then I would love to see it and what it is.

Why does that matter? There is no evidence Travis, Thomas or Crump were involved.

TMac, did you read my Phila Golfer thread?  Just checking as I know many new threads happen each and every day and I certainly do not initially read every one of them.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1410 on: May 20, 2012, 07:03:07 PM »
"Why does that matter? There is no evidence Travis, Thomas or Crump were involved."


Tom MacWood:

There is contemporaneous evidence that at least Crump was appointed to that committee but apparently you haven't seen it. Maybe Joe Bausch will supply you with contemporaneous evidence of the other two. He definitely knows more about and has more about the details of the history of Cobbs Creek than I do or than you do.

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1411 on: May 20, 2012, 07:33:32 PM »
Why weren't you Philly guys playing  today??  It's perfect out there.

Because you didn't invite me?!

:)
That will be fixed shortly
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1412 on: May 20, 2012, 08:13:15 PM »
Joe Bausch,  I've looked at the thread. I assume you are talking about the excerpt about the appointment of the committee?  That was reported at the time, was it not?  Pretty sure Tom MacWood is aware of the existence of this committee.  Do you think that membership on the committee definitely mean they they all designed the course?  If so then where is Carr in all of of this?   And if this is the design attribution, then why include the others such as Thomas and Flynn who were not on the committee?  

Is it possible that not everyone on the committee contributed equally?  Is it possible that not everyone contributed?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1413 on: May 20, 2012, 08:29:50 PM »
My father gave me many excellent lines to remember from my childhood.

One being what seems to be a head scratcher at first:  locks are to keep the honest people out.

Good stuff, IMO.

Another is one much more popular:  no good deed goes unpunished.

T and D both claim they are all for what the Friends of Cobb's Creek Golf Course are about, but those of you that are participating or just watching from the sidelines, do you believe them?  Please, speak now and openly.  I can handle the truth.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1414 on: May 20, 2012, 08:45:06 PM »
Wouldn't it be more in line with the purposes of the site to discuss golf course architecture?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1415 on: May 20, 2012, 09:13:56 PM »
David Moriarty,

933 golfers equals 233 foursomes.

At 6 minutes apart,  about 10 foursomes an hour would be the max

Making the assumption that daylight was from 6:00 am to 9:00 pm, that's 15 hours.

At 10 foursomes per hour, that's 150 foursomes which is 83 foursomes or 332 golfers short of 933 golfers.

Obviously the claim of 933 golfers in a day is a typo or an enormous exaggeration.

I can't understand how anyone wouldn't challenge that claim

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1416 on: May 20, 2012, 09:26:10 PM »
All,

Perhaps the adjacent Karakung course was included in that calculation:

The Karakung Course was originally designed by Alan P. Corson and A. H. Smith. Built initially as an 11-hole course to help alleviate the large number of golfers playing the Olde Course. It became aparent how important that decision was because by 1929, over 120,000 rounds of golf alone were played at both the Cobb’s Creek "Olde Course" and "Karakung Course".

http://www.golfphilly.org/Cobbs-Creek-Golf-Club.html
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1417 on: May 20, 2012, 10:14:35 PM »
Patrick and Steve Shaffer,

I don't think it is a typo because there are other days mentioned with almost as many.  I haven't dug it out again but am pretty sure there was one around 910 as well.  I think it is most likely what Steve Shaffer said and what I suggested in my initial post on the subject to Joe.  I  was just hoping for some clarification from Joe since the text of the work actually says otherwise.  (The table of contents appears to suggest it is both courses, but then it is treated as one.)

I am also curious as to the claim that Cobb's was the busiest course in the country in 1940.  It could have been I guess, but I'd have expected somewhere with better year round weather.  Anyone know the support for this one?  
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 10:24:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1418 on: May 21, 2012, 08:01:49 AM »
Kyle:

For some reason I missed your Post #1395. Sorry about that.

In the broad scheme of things such as how golf course projects work (the creation of Cobbs Creek in the teens) your post is far and away the most productive one on here from an architectural/design attribution perspective and a process perspective.

Of course there must have been a certain amount of delegation of responsibities to get that course's site selected, to get it designed and to get it built and in play. Unfortunately it seems what those delegations and responsibilities were are not well recorded today probably because they never were.

At the beginning of the restoration process (I think in late 2007 or 2008) I did take Cirba, Bausch and perhaps Walsh (the original participants from GOLFCLUBATLAS.com) to the GAP offices to search for historical material on the creation of Cobbs Creek. Since the committee who originated the course was one appointed by the president of GAP at the time (Merion's Robert Lesley) and were apparently both Board members or regular members of GAP that seemed to be the most logical place to look first. I don't think much or even anything turned up there; no meeting minutes, no financial history or even press articles on the Cobbs project.

Your post is inspiring me to write a new thread or an IMO piece on here on how this restoration project began and evolved until to date. It will be only from my own perspective of course so it might be a bit different from some of the others, particularly in the last year or two when I have not been as involved as in the beginning.

But again, your Post #1395 is a very good one and a comprehensive discussion of its points should help clarify those kinds of processes in golf course design, construction and development for people reading GOFCLUBATLAS.com.

You and I have spoken about this and I think we are of the same opinion that these processes are hard to understand or even imagine unless the people reading this stuff and this chronicle have actually been involved in something like it, both on the site and otherwise. Most of the people participating on this thread just have not done anything like it in the past so of course the way some perceive it can get a bit counterproductive or even silly, as a number of the posts on this thread recently have been.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:07:39 AM by TEPaul »

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1419 on: May 21, 2012, 09:13:23 AM »
DM
I run an 18 hole public course right near CC.
the last 4 days we were extremely busy.
tee times were booked from open to past 530pm each day.
we did a total of 887 rounds in this four day period.

we use 10 minute tee time intervals, except for the first 2 hours which are 8 min.

there is no way to do 900 rounds on one 18 hole course in one day.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1420 on: May 21, 2012, 09:25:33 AM »
DM
I run an 18 hole public course right near CC.
the last 4 days we were extremely busy.
tee times were booked from open to past 530pm each day.
we did a total of 887 rounds in this four day period.

we use 10 minute tee time intervals, except for the first 2 hours which are 8 min.

there is no way to do 900 rounds on one 18 hole course in one day.

Yes, Dan, this was more than likely an error.

I'm sure you won't throw out the baby with the bath water.  ;)

In the 10 years up to 1928, the Joe Dey article claims Cobbs averaged 60,000 rounds a year!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1421 on: May 21, 2012, 09:50:24 AM »
The following is additional information I am posting for Mike Cirba:



"Wow...I'm just trying to catch up a bit after being away this weekend and even after a brief scan I really can't believe the amount of misinformation about the book being presented here.   I'm not sure why, frankly, because it's available to everyone to read for themselves for free.
 
If one can try to find humor here, which this thread is certainly now in desperate need of, it's this simple fact;  Over the past week, David Moriarty has seemingly monitored this thread round-the-clock, and has posted a total of 42 times on this thread and several more times on Joe Bausch's "Philadelphia Golfer" thread, all to tell us all that the Cobb's Creek course he's writing about that was built on the other side of the country 100 years ago was not really as important and relevant to the history of golf course architecture as some have made it out to be.  ;)  ;D
 
I'm not even sure where to start in response to Tom MacWood's posts, but perhaps let's simply focus on the contention that the role of George Crump has been "distorted", or exaggerated in all of this.   
 
In spring of 1913, shortly after the Merion East course opened for play the previous autumn, but while Merion West is still under construction, Robert Lesley names a committee of experienced men to search Fairmount Park in Philadelphia to find a place for a public course.   Later in  spring1913 this group recommends a site in Cobb's Creek park;
 

 
 
Once the site for the course is located, we see that "experts" in course design and construction will be responsible for the golf course.  This group has a routing plan together by the spring of 1914, which gets approved by April 1915.
 

 
 
From the actual Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) meeting minutes of January 1915, we learn of the group members.   Ironically, Hugh Wilson's name is somehow omitted here, although it does appear in many other news reports, as well as in other GAP meeting minutes.
 

 
Shortly before the course opened, this article again lists the members of the committee appointed by Lesley, giving Hugh Wilson credit for drawing the first "tentative" plans for the course which we know went through a number of revisions;
 

 
 
An article by "Joe Bunker" about changes to Philmont Country Club (which Hugh Wilson was responsible for) again lists some of the "experts" who were responsible for Cobb's Creek.   The person in question was Ellis Gimbel of Philmont.
 

 
 
And, most ironically perhaps, given the acrimonious, peronsality-based rancor exhibited here recently,
 

 
 
The following 1928 article by Joe Dey, former head of the USGA, addresses both the men responsible for Cobb's Creek, the reason they were selected for the job, as well as the number of rounds played there up until that point, all found by Joe Basuch in the Philadelphia Golfer Magazine and posted in part in another recent thread by Indiana Joe(nes);
 

 
 
I would also point out that there are not one, but two articles indicating that Walter Travis had been spending time helping out at Cobb's Creek, and both are seen on page 63 of the book.   The first mentions that, "most of his (Travis) time has been given to assisting in the laying out of public and others courses such as Cobb's Creek and Halloween Park and Pine Valley."   The second, from January 1916 in the Philadelphia Inquirer states:
 
"Walter J. Travis has spent a good deal of time lately in making suggestions as to notable public courses, especially at Cobb's Creek and Halloween Park, Stamford.  It will be recalled that the late Mayor Gaynor, of New York, drafted him two or three times in a like capacity for Metropolitan courses.”
 
Later I wrote;
 
"From the descriptions of Travis’s involvement at Cobb’s Creek from December 1915 and January 1916, it’s difficult to tell exactly what architectural work he did.   We do know that the routing of the course was completed as early in April 1915, and built along those lines.   We also know, however, that the course was originally scheduled to open in September 1915, and that by December, Travis is described as spending “most of his time assisting with the laying out of…Cobb’s Creek…”   One could reasonably imagine that at this point, the local “experts” were only to happy to have Travis and his expertise onsite to help with both agronomic and drainage issues, as well as the possible finalizing of design features such as internal green details and other earthmoving details."
 
 
Now, I have to laugh when I consider that in other select cases a few here have argued that when a group of novices brought in an expert like Travis for advice, that would lead a select few here to want to give Travis sole design credit!  ;)  ;D    Here, the book just notes that he was involved in the project in its later stages of construction.  'Nuff said.
 
 
In the case of George Thomas, no one is saying he designed Cobb's Creek, or that he was part of the committee that did.   However, we did think his onsite time amounted to a mention, particularly since Thomas himself said he learned a great deal from Hugh Wilson by watching him at Merion and Cobb's Creek.   Here is what I wrote in that regard;
 
"It also seems that Thomas spent a good deal of time at Cobb’s Creek with Hugh Wilson.   Geoff Shackelford, who wrote the definitive biography of Thomas, “The Captain”, writes; “Thomas spent considerable time studying Hugh Wilson’s work during the construction of Merion Cricket Club’s East Course in 1912, its West Course in 1914, and at a municipal course in Philadelphia, now Cobb’s Creek.”
 
"Thomas himself wrote, “I always considered Hugh Wilson of Merion, Pennsylvania as one of the best of our golf architects, professional or amateur (note the early need for distinction).  He taught me many things at Merion and the Philadelphia Municipal (Cobb’s Creek) and when I was building my first California courses, he kindly advised me by letter when I wrote him concerning them.”..."
 
Then, given that Thomas had already done some limited design work of his own at that point at Marion (MA), Whitemarsh Valley, and Spring Lake, I surmised;
 
"...We also know that like other members of the “Philadelphia School”, George Thomas was a “naturalist”, whose own design work in California set new standards for blending the hand of man into the native environment.    While we will likely never know the extent of Thomas’s actual input to the final design of Cobb’s Creek, it seems likely that his opinion was sought, valued, and considered by Hugh Wilson and his other friends in the Philadelphia School who collaboratively designed the course.  It also seems that he spent a good deal of time there and that he considered it time well spent furthering his education in golf course architecture."
 
The book also contains a lot of information detailing William Flynn's role as the lead shaper, but one article notes that he made a trip to New England to study the famous courses there looking for ideas to bring to the Cobb's project.
 
And finally, I'm not sure if there's a reading comprehension problem among some, but the Opening Day article in the book not only calls Ben Sayers, "The Instructor" in the caption of a photo, but also states, ""Benny" Sayers, the professional, who will have charge of instruction...".   We don't know how long Mr. Sayers acted in this role.   Horace Gamble became the pro for many years around the same time.
 
Thanks for your interest in this project.
Mike"

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1422 on: May 21, 2012, 12:15:11 PM »
"I'm sure you won't throw out the baby with the bath water."

absolutely not

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1423 on: May 21, 2012, 01:16:35 PM »
Thanks D_Malley.  Imagine the chaos that would ensue if so many golfers were pumped onto a course in that short of a time!  

I live very close to Rancho Park in Los Angeles and I don't know if it is true or not but it used to be referred to around here as the busiest course in the World.  While it might not be as crazy as it once was, they used to try and pump people off the first tee as fast as they could, 6 minute tee times, from before dawn until near dusk.  The course would just lock up, with 6 hour rounds not out of the ordinary.  It seems there are only so many people one can stuff onto a golf course until everything grinds to a halt.  
____________________________________________

Joe Bausch wrote:   "Yes, Dan, this was more than likely an error. . . I'm sure you won't throw out the baby with the bath water.  . . .In the 10 years up to 1928, the Joe Dey article claims Cobbs averaged 60,000 rounds a year!"

No doubt an error.   I am glad we are agreement.   The Joe Dey number of 60,000 rounds a year average sounds much more reasonable.  In those days, with a much faster "normal" pace of play, the 80,000 that you guys claim for 1921 makes more sense as well.  Would you also agree that, given the Joe Dey numbers, the 120,000 you guys claim for 1929 is very likely an error as well, and is probably the total for both courses?   This is the year the second course opened, is it not?  Also Joe . . . I have asked several times now . . . what is the source for your claim that Cobb's was the busiest course in the country in 1940?

Not sure what the baby or the bathwater is in this situation, but I don't see how my questions or your answers (if you ever bother to answer) could possibly have a negative impact on your project, not is that my intention. Cobb's deserves a sympathetic restoration whether or not it really did 120,000 rounds in 1929 as you guys claim.   Wouldn't the project be better off an the history better told if any mistakes (if any)  were corrected?  
_______________________________________

Mike Cirba,

Thanks for keeping track of my post count.  I'd gladly compare my posts (in substance or number) to the many more posts from others who don't seem to have anything better to do but to post about me and my evil intentions.  

And please bear with me on the numbers . . . When it takes scores of posts to get one of you guys to agree that a report of 933 rounds in a day is probably not correct, it can be pretty slow going.    I'm hoping that if I ask a dozen or so more times someone might point me toward the support for the claim that Cobb's was the busiest course in the country in 1940.

As for your post above, as you said all that information is in your work.  I don't think repeating it here addresses Tom's questions or mine. For example, I don't understand how you guys distinguish between someone like Carr, who was also on the committee but gets little credit, and someone like Crump, who is on the same committee but is hailed as if he was one of the designers.  

You wrote:  
Quote
Now, I have to laugh when I consider that in other select cases a few here have argued that when a group of novices brought in an expert like Travis for advice, that would lead a select few here to want to give Travis sole design credit!        Here, the book just notes that he was involved in the project in its later stages of construction.  'Nuff said.

Were I you I might want to shy away from such comparisons, even if veiled.  Or if you want to explore it, how about a side by side comparison of what we know "the expert" did in your veiled reference above to what we know George Crump did at Cobb's.   Because as I read your work, you are implying that we should consider Cobb's in addition to Pine Valley as a course where Crump had significant involvement in the design process.  Yet I am still wondering what exactly he did there?   If such a low standard were applied in your veiled example, we'd have reprint some scorecards.

Anyway Mike, and again, I am not looking for a fight here and I do apologize if my first post of this exchange offended you.  All I have been looking for from the beginning is an accurate, unexaggerated presentation of the history, and for some straight answers to some pretty simple questions.   As you may remember from our private communications from a few years ago, I am very much a supporter of a sympathetic restoration of a Cobbs, and I am thrilled that Gil and Jim are involved.  I can think of no one better for the job. They are very familiar with that era of Philly courses, know what it means to restore a course, and also know something about creating quality public courses.  And again, congratulations on all your hard work.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1424 on: May 21, 2012, 01:54:45 PM »
Another article from Joe Dey (1931, Evening Bulletin; this one courtesy of the Temple Urban Archives):



Sure these numbers could be for both courses, but all that really matters IMO is an insanely high number of rounds were played there.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection