Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[TEPaul]

Steve and Joe:

Well, I guess I know how that mystery Joe speaks about happened. One only needs to ask him who he spoke to about that article when he researched it before writing it. Maybe it was me; maybe it was Nacarrato, maybe it was Cirba. Maybe it was any number of people he spoke to about it before writing it that participated on GCA. He should just ask himself who he spoke to about it before writing it who also participated on GOLFCLUBALTLAS.com back then.

It's pretty amazing the argumentative attention Merion has received over the years. To figure out who precipitated the whole thing the only thing anyone needs to do is figure out who were the ones who began criticizing Merion in the first place and why.

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul's last post is pretty funny.  

I've tried to peacefully end this thread in a conciliatory manner a few times, wishing all the parties involved good luck and suggesting a little less hype in the future.  Each time TEPaul has saw fit to take some more pot shots at me.   Review the last few pages of this thread.  The vast majority of gratuitous attacks on motivations and intentions have come from the same side.  

This whole thing is ridiculous. There was no single public course known as the best in the country!  Mike Cirba knows this, and whether he will admit it or not so does Joe Bausch.   So does anyone who has ever actually researched this time period!  

Mike got carried away in his zeal to support his point.  It isn't the first time and it probably won't be last.  By denying the obvious and attacking me for stating the obvious, you guys have once again turned this into something it never had to be.   

True or False

1. During the first few decades of Cobb's existence, there was nothing close to a national consensus as to which was the best public course in the country.

2. During the same time period, no single course was "known" as the best public course in the country.
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As if on cue, more vague and ridiculous conspiracy theories and related b.s. from TEPaul . . .

It's pretty amazing the argumentative attention Merion has received over the years. To figure out who precipitated the whole thing the only thing anyone needs to do is figure out who were the ones who began criticizing Merion in the first place and why.

I don't think I have ever criticized Merion and I never even participated in any of those bunker discussions.

[Bill_McBride]

You guys need to go to neutral corners so your seconds can throw cold water all over you and cool things off.   And the styptic will hurt like hell.

The way I read the story, in 1916 people in Philadelphia thought Cobbs Creek was the best public course in the country.

Sounds like boosterism to me but so what?   Everybody is entitled to an opinion, even if it doesn't agree with mine.

[DMoriarty]

Bill,

Had Mike written that I would have had no problem with it.   But that is not what the letter says, and not the impression I think Mike was hoping to create for the very reason you said.  If he would have proper put it in the context of what people thought in Philadelphia, it sounds like boosterism (which IMO much of it was.)

I also agree that everyone is entitled to his opinion.  If Mike had said that he believed that Cobb's was the best public in the country, I might disagree with his his opinion, but I wouldn't have objected to him saying that to an interested party or having it posted it on Joe Logan's website.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Don't try to lay any of this on me. This thread was in the back pages since January. Someone brought it up again this month for a progress report on the Cobbs project and you just gratuitously went right after Mike Cirba again with your post #1258. Cirba hasn't even been on this site for many months. So why did you do that again? Honestly, why did you do that?

But since you and you alone did it on the subject of Cirba, just try to take responsibility for this rather than always trying to shirk it off on others who respond to you for something you started all over again!!!!

[TEPaul]

Here's what started this Cirba thing off again after many months of this thread being in the back pages and Cirba being off the site for maybe eight months.






"« Reply #1258 on: May 15, 2012, 12:59:00 PM »

Quote


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you guys know Hank Church perhaps you should let him know that he should take whatever Mike Cirba says with a large grain of salt.  

Don't get me wrong, I have fond memories of Cobb's Creek.  It is a good course with an interesting history and it would be nice if if could be restored in an economical and efficient manner. But hyping it beyond what it was is dishonest and counterproductive.  Among other things, to say that Cobb's Creek "was known as the best public course in the country" is disingenuous at best."




So Moriarty started it all over again all by himself and when anyone responded to him who was not in total agreement with him (which was nobody, by the way), he just launched into his usual responses that he was being misread, misunderstood, victimized etc, etc.

To end all this all that has to happen is for Moriarty to just shut the f.. up on this ridiculous BS moral outrage of his with something Cirba said about Cobb's greatness and just leave Mike Cirba alone!

[DMoriarty]

More laughable conspiracy crap.  I started it?  What is this, 2nd grade?

Recently someone linked to a letter Mike had written, and my comments were directed at this letter.  In my opinion Mike misrepresented the historical record, it bothered me, and I commented.  Were it not for TEPaul and his cronies making this into something it isn't it would have never become what it has.  

Take a look at the past couple of pages, since I "started it."

Better yet review this and all of threads actually about the possible restoration!  I have always been a supporter of a properly done restoration at Cobb's and have even expressed that publicly and to Mike in private messages a few years ago, even when we were battling about Merion. I have great respect for Gil and Jim and given the opportunity I am sure they will do a tremendous job.  

For the most part I have stayed clear of the restoration issue (in part because I think Mike has overhyped the history) but I do recall entering the fray one time when Forrest Richardson was trying to glom on to the project and was laughably being marketed as some sort of a restoration architect.  I have seen his idea of "restoration" work and I let it be known in no uncertain terms that Cobb's was too good a course to let him ruin it, and that his involvement would be a complete disaster, and that the project needed to find someone who would actually do a sympathetic restoration.  I recall at the time that those involved in with the project  ere grateful for my comments.  

So this notion that I am out to get this project or even Mike in relation to this project is garbage.
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Now, unless TEPaul has any more yarn to spin about conspiracy theories and such, who will be first to answer my question?  Dan? MEvensky?  You've both said you don't think Mike stretched here, so it ought to be a cinch for you . . .  

[TEPaul]

Conspiracy theories and out to get the Cobb's Creek project? Who said anything on here about conspiracy theories and that you were out to get the Cobb's project?

What you said on here recently is that you felt that due to what Cirba said about Cobb's being known as the best public course in the country it was dishonest, counterproductive and disingenuous of him. Fine, that's your opinion but the fact that no one seems to agree with you has apparently gotten you hysterical once again----eg you keep claiming on here that people are mireading what you wrote, misunderstanding you, victimizing you etc.

The only conspiracy theories I'm aware of are what you and MacWood tried to label Merion and Wilson, sometimes Pine Valley and Crump, sometimes Cobbs and Philadelphia with in some attempt to preserve Philadelphia myths and lore and legends. You labelled those conspiracies and conspirators the "Philadelphia Syndrome", the "Philadelphia Posse" etc. There are no conspiracy theories of that nature around here that I've ever been aware of----it was all just a bunch of trumped up stuff you and MacWood generated on here for almost a decade now. I guess the reason you two did that with Philadelphia architecture and a few architects was to try to make a name for yourselves as some kind of researchers/historians and by trying to show up a few people who told you precisely why they disagreed with a number or your theories (read: your "Missing Faces of Merion" IMO piece).

The only thing you ever discovered was that Hugh Wilson did not go abroad in 1910, and we certainly gave you credit for that once it seemed apparent. But when we explained to you precisely why that made no difference at all to what he did in 1911 with Merion East you both just didn't want to accept it or even hear it. You accused some of us of lying, hiding important material, altering original documents and trying to bar the door of some clubs to the both of you. Nothing like that was remotely true but you just didn't want to accept it or even hear it.

What you tried to do just didn't work and it seems to make you endlessly defensive and hysterical, and your latest outburst is another criticism of Cirba by calling him dishonest, disingenuous and counterproductive. But if you two want to continue to throw shit on the wall, particularly about Philadelphia architects and architecture, then fine, but expect people, and particularly people from Philadelphia who know more about it than you two do to tell you both that you are throwing shit on the wall.

If there is anyone out there who agrees with you two I would welcome them coming forward or having you two name them----we would love to speak to them civilly and objectively about anything on their mind to do with the history of Philadelphia golf architecture. I don't think they will because I can't see there is anyone out there who agrees with you two at this point. And when they don't it seems all you are left with is to just continue to do what you've always done---lash out at, insult and blame people like Cirba and Morrison and me.

[DMoriarty]

Another yawner from TEPaul.  Despite his  irrational obsession with this other crap, I am not interested his distortions about Merion, Morrison, Hugh Wilson, etc., or his fantasies about my intentions, his wacky conspiracy theory, or much of anything else he has to say.  (For fun, though, I might have to dig up those old emails about the Philadelphia Posse, since for whatever reason his memory is lacking.  Might be interesting for some of you sot see just how long this witch hunt has gone on.)

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Now, to my questions?  A cynical mind might think you guys were avoiding answering because you are more interested in defending your friend than honestly discussing this stuff.  Is it really so hard to admit that there was no "known" best public course?  Seriously?

[TEPaul]

"Now, to my questions?  A cynical mind might think you guys were avoiding answering because you are more interested in defending your friend than honestly discussing this stuff.  Is it really so hard to admit that there was no "known" best public course?  Seriously?"




I'm not avoiding anything. It does seem though that you can't handle me opinions on this kind of thing. Why is that? How about the following to create some "context" for a civil, productive discussion?

"known" by whom or by what? A magazine, a newspaper, some expert player? What is wrong with relying on the opinion of a two time USGA Public Links champion? What else or who else back then would be worthy of an opinion.

What is a "consensus" if there were no magazine or newspaper lists or rankings of golf courses back then? Did Cirba ever mention the word consensus or is that just one you're including now, and if so why? Is any of this something you want to know in the context of what Cirba said or are you going to just supply your own context despite what Cirba said or claimed about Cobb's Creek.

[DMoriarty]

I'm not interested in TEPaul's rhetorical games.. We all know what "known as the best public course" means.   Mike didn't mean known in Philadelphia as the best course, or he would have said it.  He didn't mean known as the best by some guy who won a tournament there, either.     He attached no qualifiers, no limitations.   That is the problem.   He suggested it was widely considered the best in the nation, period.

[Joe Bausch]

How 'bout those Phillies?

[Dan Herrmann]

Verlander has a no hitter going against the Pirates

[DMoriarty]

How 'bout those Phillies?

Actually a good example, Joe.  If some writer in Philadelphia writes that the Phillies are the best team in baseball, does that mean they are "known" as the best team in baseball?  That'd be pretty silly.

[TEPaul]

"I'm not interested in TEPaul's rhetorical games.."


That's fine; it looks like you can now just tell everyone what they know and think and mean; they don't need to answer your questions or even read what you say anymore. You can just ask your own questions and then answer them all yourself. It sort of fitting at this point that no one seems to want to discuss anything with you.

Anyone? Hello, is there anyone out there?? Hello, can anyone hear me? Joe, are you still there?? Oh damn, everyone must be victimizing me again. Is there anyone out there? Can anyone hear me? Hello!!!  




Go Phillies,

Good night Mrs Callabash, wherever you are.

[Joe Bausch]

Verlander has a no hitter going against the Pirates

Was Harrison's hit against Verlander sort of like David swinging against Mike (and me)?

[Dan Herrmann]

Joe - there are so many funny replies to that question that I'm sure would be misunderstood by the gentleman from California.

PS -  Speaking of "the gentleman from <name a state>, now I know why Congress is dysfunctional - too many passionate attorneys 100% convinced they're right.

[DMoriarty]

Typical TEPaul. He cuts my quote to make it look like I didn't address his question, when I did.   Again, we know what "known as the best in the country" means and what it doesn't mean.

1.  It doesn't meana guy who won a tournament there thinks it is  the best.
2.  It doesn't mean a guy hyping a tournament there wrote it was the best.    
3.  It doesn't mean a newsaper guy thought it was "perhaps" the best.  

Mike didn't attach any such qualifiers, so there is no use pretending he meant anything but that the course had a wide reputation as the best in the country.  But at that early date no public course had a wide reputation as the best in the country.   There various were parochial opinions, and not much more.  

And again, the wise cracks, insults, and personal attacks are rather one sided in this discussion.    Yet I am the one with the agenda?  Interesting.  

[TEPaul]

Dan, please---"gentleman" is a word and term that should never be used lightly. But if you want to refer to that man from California as "counselor in inactive status" that might do the trick nicely.  

If you happen to talk to that hyberbolic, dishonest, disingenuous and counterproductive Cirba before I do please give him my love and wish him well on his Cobbs Creek restoration project. Not that he needs it because as far as I can tell at this time even if it hasn't happened yet there is a national consensus that it is widely known to be the best public course restoration in the country.

[TEPaul]

"Typical TEPaul. He cuts my quote to make it look like I didn't address his question, when I did."


Of course I did. I thought you undertood it is widely known I am perhaps the best alterer of original documents in the country. You've said it yourself on here a number of times so that must mean it's true, right?

[DMoriarty]

When you guys finish with the lawyer jokes, insults, pot shots, ad hominem nonsense, and laughable lectures on what it means to be "gentleman," my questions will be waiting.  Here they are again in case you forgot . . .

True or False?

1. During the first few decades of Cobb's existence, there was nothing close to a national consensus as to which was the best public course in the country.

2. During the same time period, no single course was "known" as the best public course in the country.

[Bill_McBride]

How can those be questions with no question marks?

[DMoriarty]

How can those be questions with no question marks?

Details, details.   They are true or false questions.  I added a question mark for you, though. 

[Dan Herrmann]

David - Who cares?

But to answer your questions, I think it's been proved that CC was considered the finest public course in the land in the late 1920's.

Do you have proof that another public course was better than CC at that time?

[TEPaul]

True or False?
1. During the first few decades of Cobb's existence, there was nothing close to a national consensus as to which was the best public course in the country.
2. During the same time period, no single course was "known" as the best public course in the country.



David Moriarty:

While you might not suspect it, since it appears no one so far is interested in answering your question, I do not want you to feel victimized and insulted by silence so I will be glad to answer your question.

However, if you ask that the question on your statements be answered by only a true or a false I would not answer it as I believe your two statements are designed to be merely rhetorical and without a necessary context. I firmly believe your statements need to be put into context, and to establish that context there needs to be some explanation of what the context is, as well as what it isn’t.

So what is that context, and additionally since this question is apparently not being asked in some vacuum, or at least I hope it isn't, what is the context that Mike Cirba intended (or intends) with his statement that Cobbs Creek was known at the best public course in the country?

After reviewing most all Cirba’s material on Cobbs and having spoken with him about it, I believe he intends that context to be approximately the first thirteen years of Cobbs Creek’s existence and specifically the NATIONAL tournament played there in 1928 (USGA Public Links Championship).

Also, Mike Cirba did not address the idea of consensus; I cannot even find where he used such a word. You are the one who inserted that word and idea. Mike Cirba used the word “known” in his statement ‘Cobbs Creek was known as the best public course in the country.’

So the question becomes to whom was Cobbs Creek KNOWN to be the best public course in the country during the timeframe Mike Cirba intended or even your timeframe? The correct answer to that question should establish the correct context of your statements and also of his statement although the two of you seem to be applying slightly different timeframes.

It seems to me Cirba never intended his statement to mean Cobbs Creek was known to be the best public course in the country by all Americans or all American golfers or even all American public golfers. From the documentation he supplied (newspaper and magazine articles) to support his statement it seems he meant Cobbs Creek was known to public course golfers who competed in national public golf tournaments, and perhaps a number of people who read the newspaper and magazine articles that reported what those national public championship golfers thought about any particular public courses in the nation they competed on in a national championship, that included Cobbs Creek in 1928.

I believe the above supplies the necessary context for your statements and particularly for the context Cirba intended and meant when he made his statement. I believe this is the best way to look at this subject and issue historically.

THEREFORE, my answer to your true or false question about your two statements above is that they are both false, particularly as both your statements appear unnecessarily rhetorical and they also both lack the necessary context to historically evaluate Mike Cirba’s statement accurately that Cobbs Creek was known to be the best public course in the country.