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JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1300 on: May 17, 2012, 01:44:37 PM »


Besides, Imagine the lather you guys would have worked up had I gone to Joe Logan instead of posting this here.  I'd be accused of trying to torpedo the project!  




Who could possibly accuse you of ulterior motives?

So,if I'm reading correctly,the lying scumbag Mike Cirba has foisted a hoax on Joe Logan and his readers.You're the only man who can set Joe Logan straight as to the hoax,but you won't do it because you fear the opprobrium of the Philly guys.

It's pretty obvious that Mike Cirba is too gutless to call Joe Logan and confess to his ethical lapse.Looks like you're the only one capable of protecting truth,justice,and the American way.

What have you got against Joe Logan that you won't spare him further embarrassment?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1301 on: May 17, 2012, 01:50:09 PM »

At Cobb's Creek, the model is more accurately Rustic Canyon or Wild Horse. than Bethpage Black.   Perhaps a better analogy, given some of the steep hills and the winding creek that Mike mentioned is Augusta National.   The idea is to accentuate and turn up the maintenance meld on the terrific original routing that utilizes the natural rolling landforms in interesting and varied ways.   If some of us could have our way, there would be no rough but only short grass.   The course being proposed is MUCH wider than today's due to gaining back 15% of the original acreage, as well as putting in an irrigation system that can support healthy turf on a wide fairway, as opposed to today's 1950s single-row irrigation heads, many of them busted.   We would like the ball to run forever, frankly, with a firm and fast presentation. Cobbs never needed a lot of bunkers, and those that are in place are mostly "saving" bunkers that stop a moving ball from a worse fate.  
 
Today's Cobb's has one major drawback which is a paucity of realistic forward tees for seniors and women.   The front markers are sometimes only 5-10 yards ahead of the men's.  This will be addressed, hopefully, through thoughful planning and placement.   Also, the longest carry required to reach terra firma on any point of the course is about the width of the creek, also much like ANGC in that regard.   The idea is to use the wonderfully low profile tilted greensites to be approached from whatever angle is advantageous for that day's hole location and to really let the landscape and greensites defend par.   We'd like to keep lost balls and frustration of chopping out of rough or blasting out of bunkers to a minimum.
 
I think it's important for people to know that the goal is to have a course that is playable for everyone, but also that can challenge the best players from the back tees with tough hole locations and other subtleties for important competitions.   We certainly don't see those goals as mutually incompatible and as mentioned, our models are where that has proven to work, as well as what we know Cobb's was originally.
 

Mike Cirba,

With my one suggestion above, I think you have a pretty good start to a Mission Statement for The Re-Development of Cobbs Creek. When you start fundraising, let me know. Cheers.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1302 on: May 17, 2012, 02:15:58 PM »
JMEvensky,

Quit putting words in my mouth.  I didn't call Mike a lying scumbag or gutless, nor did I say he pulled a hoax.  Mike's claim was a "stretch," to use Kris Shreiner's word.  As is his wont, he got carried away with the hype at the expense of an accurate historical record.

As for Joe Logan, it is up to Mike whether or not he chooses to clean up his mess.  I was more hoping he'd clean up his rhetoric in the future and perhaps take a critical comb to that big report. It could use it.

And it ought to be obvious by now that I am not afraid of the reaction of you Philly boys.  I was merely pointing out that it is hypocritical of you to claim I should go to Joe Logan when if I had you would be even more irate than you are now.
____________________________________________

All,

Look, it was never my intention for this to be become such a distraction, and it certainly isn't my desire to engage with Cirba or TEPaul about anything whatsoever.   My point is a rather simple one.  When it comes to the historical record we should set the hyperbole aside. That is it. Cobb's was considered to be an excellent course, certainly one of the best public courses in the country when it was first built.  I just don't see any justification for definitive proclamations beyond that.  There was no consensus then as to the best public and any claims that there such a consensus are false.  Sure in Philadelphia they thought it was the best, but this was true of in just about every town about there own course (except where a town was trying to get a new course built.)  

Hell, you guys have already pronounced the future Cobb's Creek to be in the top five in the country and the work hasnt even been done yet! Does that mean it "known as" a top five public course?  Of course not.   It is just the usual hype and excitement associated with any new project.  Such localized hype doesn't establish anything other than they were high on the course in Philadelphia.  

Historical research isn't about finding a snippet and milking it for all it is worth.  It is about truly understanding what happened.  And Mike surely understands that Cobb's wasn't "known as the best" except amongst Philadelphians and maybe a few others.  As students of golf course architecture we ought to be able to make such distinctions.  And it isn't right for us to pull the wool over the eyes of those who don't know better, even when our intentions our laudable.

I debated whether or not to post at all, and given my history with Mike I probably shouldn't have posted.  But things like this bother me, and not just when they come from Mike. It annoys me when anyone misuses the historical record for their own purposes, whether or not there intentions are laudable.

In the end, I do wish the project the best of luck, and congratulate Mike and all involved on their efforts and hope it turns out well for them and public course golfers of Philadelphia, of which I was once one.  I do hope in the future he will tone down the rhetoric, as there is no need for it.  
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 02:36:56 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1303 on: May 17, 2012, 08:46:47 PM »
To all:

From the last number of posts today I think you guys are finally doing a pretty good job of putting this fellow David Moriarty into the confined box he needs to be put in for what he has been saying about Mike Cirba and his ongoing efforts---and yes, statements, about Cobbs Creek's history, reputation and its recent restoration project.

Good for you guys----you are beginning to restore my faith in honesty and accuracy and its capacity to exist on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1304 on: May 17, 2012, 09:16:56 PM »
What utter B.S.  I stand by everything I have written on this thread.  

This guy doesn't want civil discussion.

I tried to give him his space, even laughed off his comic/tragic "interview" without comment, but he just cannot help himself.  Pathetic.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 09:19:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1305 on: May 17, 2012, 09:19:11 PM »
Call the Exorcist.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1306 on: May 17, 2012, 09:44:49 PM »
To all:

From the last number of posts today I think you guys are finally doing a pretty good job of putting this fellow David Moriarty into the confined box he needs to be put in for what he has been saying about Mike Cirba and his ongoing efforts---and yes, statements, about Cobbs Creek's history, reputation and its recent restoration project.

Good for you guys----you are beginning to restore my faith in honesty and accuracy and its capacity to exist on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!

TEP
You've gotten a little personal there don't you think? IMO your post is nothing more than an expression of a personal vendetta, and is really not necessary. You obviously have a lot pent up animosity and as a result you are adding nothing to anyone's understanding of golf architect. Perhaps you are not the only one but try to rise above it.

Back to the subject, a couple of things bother me regarding this whole CC campaign. The exaggeration of the course's reputation and the distortion of who was involved. It was one of the premier public courses at the time, and bringing it back to its former glory would be a positive development, but why is it necessary to go in that direction?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1307 on: May 17, 2012, 10:18:30 PM »
Isn't the work Mike & Joe is doing amazing!  They and others are trying to restore an important historical golf course    When completed, it will be a real treasure -- something we can all enjoy and appreciate.   I hope the work inspires others to do similar work in their own cities
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 10:20:50 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1308 on: May 17, 2012, 10:53:36 PM »
Changing the current theme of this thread...

Where is the USGA and their 250Million on this project?

Where is the City Water Dept and the EPA on this project?

Where is the City Recreation Dept on this project?

It's a shame this project will not be completed or perhaps not even started for the US Open next year.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1309 on: May 17, 2012, 11:04:11 PM »
"TEP
You've gotten a little personal there don't you think? IMO your post is nothing more than an expression of a personal vendetta, and is really not necessary. You obviously have a lot pent up animosity and as a result you are adding nothing to anyone's understanding of golf architect. Perhaps you are not the only one but try to rise above it."



Tom MacWood:


No, I don't think I have gotten personal (with David Moriarty) or anyone on this website, at least not recently or on this thread. I think all I have done is respond to what Moriarty has said on this website and on this thread. I realize you think the entire history of my discussion with you and Moriarty is some kind of personal vendetta, while I'm quite sure you realize that I think your ongoing discussion with me and some others from Philadelphia about Merion East, Hugh Wilson, Cobbs Creek and even Pine Valley is a personal vendetta on the part of you and David Moriarty.

I have no pent up animosity towards either you or David Moriarty because I really don't know either of you other than what you have said on this website over the years. But from what you have said on this website over the years I can certainly tell you I have no respect at all for either of you for a whole panoply of reasons (if you would like me to be more specific please ask me and I will comply).

Rise above what?


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1310 on: May 17, 2012, 11:16:45 PM »
Dan Hermann,

We get it.  You love the work Mike and Joe have done on the project.  It is a great project.  Etc.    Does that mean the entire thing is off limits to any sort of scrutiny?   Is it okay to "stretch" the truth about the course if the goal is laudable?

I patiently answered your questions above.   Will you please answer mine, both here and above?   

Thanks. 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1311 on: May 18, 2012, 07:44:18 AM »
David - aimless scrutiny does not advance either GCA or the public good in this matter.  My opinion is that the truth hasn't been stretched - I base my opinion on the contemporaneous newspaper articles from the early days of Cobb's Creek.

Your academic style is like somebody bringing a shotgun to an archery competition.  You try to destroy everything to say you hit a bulls-eye.   To be really blunt, your current style is hurting the study of GCA and has possibly caused so much harm that it'll never now reach its former potential.    Why don't you just go away and study the great moon landing conspiracy?   
 


Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1312 on: May 18, 2012, 08:33:35 AM »
Keep up the great work, Mike and Joe, and please keep us informed as to progress.
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1313 on: May 18, 2012, 09:08:41 AM »
Keep up the great work, Mike and Joe, and please keep us informed as to progress.

Thanks Rich.  I hope this site will be the place for any updates:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/focc/Friends_of_Cobbs_Creek/Welcome.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1314 on: May 18, 2012, 09:55:16 AM »
"But you failed to answer my question . . . .

Do you honestly think it is the best interest of the project for Mike Cirba to be out there making false statements about Cobb's past reputation, and for those false statements to be published on Joe Logan's site?"



David Moriarty:

My answer to your question is that no, it is not in the best interest of the Cobbs project or any project to be making false statements about Cobb's past reputation or the past reputation of any golf course. However, I do not believe that is what Mike Cirba has done. I believe he does have documentary evidence to make that claim even if it may not rise to the level or degree you think it should. One good example is from Carl Kauffman, the double repeating USGA Public Links champion who won at Cobbs Creek and became the repeat champion.

Carl Kauffman was quoted in a 1928 newspaper article on Cobbs as follows:

“Cobbs Creek is the finest test of golf we’ve ever played in a championship. It is the best public course I’ve ever seen.”

In my opinion, that gives Mike Cirba the justification to say what he said about Cobbs Creek. I can't imagine who would be a better opinion source on this kind of thing than the two time USGA Public Links champion! I realize you may not agree with that but it does not appear to me that many or even anyone cares if you don’t agree. Of course you can just add anyone who does not agree with you to this ridiculous “Philadelphia Posse” thing that you and MacWood came up with some years ago, but when you keep doing that I think you both just continue to minimize any credibility you ever had on here or anywhere else.

And as far as blatant disregard for the truth and complete deception I don't think what Mike Cirba said about Cobbs Creek comes remotely close to what Tom MacWood did with that IMO piece on here entitled "The World's Finest Courses."  And I think that reason alone is the explanation and the justification for the vast difference in outrage shown Tom MacWood for that compared to the far less outrage shown Mike Cirba for his statement about Cobbs Creek.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 11:46:50 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1315 on: May 18, 2012, 10:37:40 AM »
When this thread first started, I had some disagreements (for lack of a better word) with Mike about some aspects of the approach he was taking, and I shared those with him off line. My views were meant to be supportive of the restoration project and of the excellent work he'd already done and was still to do.  But, without putting words in his mouth, I believe that Mike's position then and now is that at the time it was built and opened, in 1916 I believe, Cobb's was the best public course in the land. I wouldn't argue with him (and I don't know enough to do so); but I thought that the challenge (for lack of a better word) of that element/statement was that it might be too nuanced, i.e. that with so many courses opening in the 1910s and 20s and early 30s, it would be very had for anyone but a few real experts to distinguish between a public course that opened in 1916 and one that opened in say, 1920, or 1924, or 1930.  For most folks (including me) I think of that whole period as 'the golden age', and so I read Mike's evaluation of Cobb's as if it were meant to apply to the whole period up to to and including the early 30s; that is, while Mike doesn't intend this, I think most of us read the evaluation as meaning that Cobb's was the best public course of the golden age.

Peter 

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1316 on: May 18, 2012, 11:26:19 AM »
Changing the current theme of this thread...

Where is the USGA and their 250Million on this project?

Where is the City Water Dept and the EPA on this project?

Where is the City Recreation Dept on this project?

It's a shame this project will not be completed or perhaps not even started for the US Open next year.

Please stay patient Steve-o!  And everyone else too.  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1317 on: May 18, 2012, 11:55:24 AM »
"Back to the subject, a couple of things bother me regarding this whole CC campaign. The exaggeration of the course's reputation and the distortion of who was involved."


Tom MacWood:

I'm sorry you're bothered, so, could you please explain what you mean by 'the distortion of who was involved?' Have you not seen the documentation of who all was involved with the design and creation of Cobbs Creek? And where is that so-called "Independent expert research" you are always bragging on yourself about? It looks like this time Mike Cirba, Joe Bausch and Co. pretty much outstripped you and your fellow travelers with "independent expert research" on Cobbs Creek!   ;)

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1318 on: May 18, 2012, 12:59:06 PM »
Below is an additonal message from Mike Cirba to clarify a few things:



All,
 
I went back to see what all the fuss is about in our 344 page book, and to see exactly what travesty of historical justice I’ve been accused of committing that has David and Tom MacWood in such a tizzy.
 
As such, I searched the document for the words “best”, and “finest”.   Here’s what I found;
 
In the introduction, I wrote the following;
 
“Although the course didn’t open for play until three years later in 1916, once opened, Cobb’s Creek Golf Course instantly became acknowledged as the best and most challenging public course in the country.”
 
Later in the intro, comparing the state of the course today to what it was when it opened, I wrote;
 
“However, it wasn’t always that way.   In fact, there was a time when public golf in Philadelphia, particularly at Cobb’s Creek, was renowned nationally, and when people lined up overnight to play and major amateur and professional tournaments were held there.   There was a time when Cobb’s Creek was acknowledged as the best public golf course in the country.   There was a time when great players of all races and ethnic backgrounds were fostered and developed on our local public links.”   
 
Later, in the chronological section, under the year 1916, I wrote;
 
“In May, Cobb’s Creek opens for play to both critical and popular success.   It is hailed as the finest public course in the country and it proves extremely challenging.”
 
I based those statement not only on the many local reviews from Philadelphia newspapers, but also from rival cities, such as this article from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on August 28th, 1916;
 

 
 
Only one other time did I find mention where I referred to the course’s reputation in that regard.   After mentioning that we had discovered through photographic evidence and contemporaneous knowledge that all of the original land and greensites were still recoverable I wrote;
 
“This recent research happily led to the realization that if targeted resources and efforts were directed towards a full “restoration” of what was once renowned as the best public golf course in the country up until the Depression years, designed by Philadelphia and golf architectural legends, there is absolutely nothing known at present that would make that infeasible.”
 
Now, balky grammar aside, I would concede that the phrase “up until the Depression years” could be debated by some.   With the start of the Depression generally acknowledged as occurring in October 1929 with the Stock market crash, I was basing my assessment on 1) articles like the following by some credible sources who had seen and played multiple public courses during that time, 2) my own research and understanding of the public courses of the time period, 3) my having actually seen and played many historic municipal courses across the country, and 4) the selection of Cobb’s Creek to host the US Publinks in 1928, the experience of the difficulties and challenges of the men who played in that tournament, and the laudatory plaudits the course received from every corner during that period.   
 
As mentioned yesterday, after the Depression started a lot of public monies at city and federal levels got poured into public golf.   Some great public courses were built, but some others were left fallow.    Cobb’s fared ok, having a second 18 completed on the property through WPA labor, and as the book details, it wasn’t until after WWII and the ensuring Cold War that the property took a turn for the worse with the loss of 15% of the total acreage of the original course and the subsequent re-routing, and slow decline as city funding dried up over the decades.
 

 
Hope that helps…if anyone else besides Tom and David feels I should change the book in the interest of historical accuracy, please let me know at the following address, and I’ll be happy to consider your thoughts.  Thanks!   
 
Mike 
Mik4cj@yahoo.com

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1319 on: May 18, 2012, 02:29:52 PM »
Peter makes some valid points above, and I agree with him.  He seems to be focusing on Mike's opinion or evaluation of early Cobb's as compared to the rest of the public courses.  In other words, that Mike seemed to be making the case that Cobb's was the best public course of the Golden Age.   If I am reading him correctly, he and I agree that this may be overselling the course a bit, at especially if we consider the entire Golden Age.  That said, if Mike thinks it was the best public course in the Golden Age or in some subset of the Golden Age, then he is certainly entitled to that opinion, and he can use whatever articles he wants to try and support that opinion.   Depending upon the parameters I might not be convinced, but he is entitled to his opinion.  

My "disagreements" here differ from Peter's in that I am not even addressing Mike's opinion.  I am addressing a factual claim.   Mike claimed that Cobb's was known as the best public in the country.  Cobb's wasn't "known" as the best public in the country and Mike knows this!  
-- Mike knows that there was nothing approaching a consensus as to which public course was best.  
-- Mike knows that it was commonplace for towns to hype its now course as the best in whatever category, and that such hype must necessarily be taken with a grain of salt. About the only time a town might compliment another town's courses was when it was leaning on civic pride to angle for a new course or improvements to existing course.

Mike knows these things.  Look at his responses above.  He still doesn't dispute anything I have said.   Instead he brings up old discussions and tries to turn this into a discussion of what he calls his "book."  But the "hype," as Mike puts it, is Mike's representation to Hank Church and on Joe Logan's website!  Mike knows that there was no consensus best public course in the country.   Yet he claimed Cobb's was.   That is the "stretch."

Just as there was no consensus "The World's Finest Courses" determination in 1939, there was no consensus determination of the "best public course."   Mike "stretched" in order to support his opinion that Cobb's was the best.  This stretch is a misuse use of the historical record.  

By the way, Mike's article above has been discussed on here many times, so I won't bother to get into it.    As I said, no single newspaper article article can reasonably be used to establish that Cobb's was "known" as the best.  No such consensus existed.  And not even this article  supports the claim.  The article said Cobb's is "perhaps" the best municipal.    But there is no "perhaps" with Mike.  He thinks it was the best so he stretched the truth to say Cobb's was "known" as the best.  
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 02:46:20 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1320 on: May 18, 2012, 02:39:16 PM »
Thinking more about this, it is really pretty amazing.  Are you guys are really so intent on your fantasy conspiracy theories and on continuing your battles with me that you are willing to deny the  obvious?   Let's see . . .

True or False

1. During the first few decades of Cobb's existence, there was nothing close to a national consensus as to which was the best public course in the country.

2. During the same time period, no single course was "known" as the best public course in the country.


Does anyone want to argue that either of these statements is FALSE?   Really?  
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 02:59:11 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1321 on: May 18, 2012, 03:07:17 PM »
David Moriarty's Posts #1321 and #1322! Anyone want to talk about a "tempest in a teapot?"----those posts are definitely it!

In his #1 and #2 "True of False" test statements he starts inserting things like "consensus" and such that Mike Cirba never even mentioned when he made his statement about Cobbs. I suppose that's supposed to mean the magazine rankings that began after the depression and didn't exist before the depression. So what Mike Cirba was using was what existed at the time in question with Cobbs (perhaps the Golden Age), and before there were any consensus listings of golf courses. Cirba was referring to what existed in the earlier years----eg some experts referred to Cobbs as the best public course in the country. Carl Kauffman was one of those "experts" in probably the best position of anyone to comment on what was the best public course in the county at the time (1928)! And that's what Kauffman did in that 1928 newspaper article Cirba cited for a justification of his own statement about Cobbs.


Moriarty even mentioned the "World's Finest Courses" list of 1939. Only problem with that one is it didn't exist either. Tom MacWood just made the entire thing up in an IMO piece on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and passed it off as truth and fact for a few years until finally admitting he had created a hoax, a deception, a lie----whatever one calls it they all basically amount to the same thing----eg disingenuous, dishonest, deceptive etc. In the meantime some press people thought it was real and true and wrote about it and some of the courses that were on it.

There is no comparison between what Cirba said about Cobbs and what MacWood wrote. That Moriarty doesn't seem to understand that or appreciate and acknowledge it shows a man with a pretty odd moral  or ethical compass, in my book, if he is suggesting that there should be similar opprobrium shown Cirba for what he said as there was to MacWood for what he wrote!


« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 03:21:32 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1322 on: May 18, 2012, 03:12:52 PM »
Anyone?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1323 on: May 18, 2012, 03:18:29 PM »
Joe Logan gave me permission to post this:

I see that I am now collateral damage in a debate about Cobbs Creek that will be resolved sometime after the Republicans and Democrats in the House of Representatives skip off into the sunset hand-in-hand..


Unfortunately, it is because of that very level of hostility that I find myself looking at GCA less these days.   The name-calling, the personal attacks, the questioning of the integrity of people they don't even know, I don't get it.


It reminds of years ago, when I was still at the Philadelphia Inquirer, and I was working on a story about the renovations at Merion.  I had done the reporting, then had flown off to Atlanta to cover the US Amateur.  One morning, as I was about to begin writing the story for that Sunday's paper, I logged onto GCA and discovered a thread about the Merion story I was about to write.  How posters on GCA knew that the story was in the works is mystery to me.  There was all kinds of speculation and hissing about what the story would say and whose misguided vision it would defend.  (There was a huge controversy on GCA about the bunkering). I remember thinking, Holy crap, how can these people know what I am going to write when I don't know what  I am going to write?   I learned a lesson then and there.



"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1324 on: May 18, 2012, 03:29:33 PM »
Steve:

That's a very interesting message from Joe. I had no idea that someone knew he was going to write that story even before he wrote it. I suppose the first question a good investigator would ask to find out would be to simply ask Joe who he told about the article before he wrote it. If he told no one how in the world could anyone have known?


With this entire reprisal on the Cobbs thread about what Mike Cirba once said about the quality of Cobbs Creek it is not difficult at all to find out who brought that up again. It was only one person and all anyone needs to do is look at the post (Reply #1258) recently in which he did that.

I say that particular poster should just let the whole thing go and I doubt anyone would be interested in discussing it on this website anymore---and the whole issue would die.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 03:31:16 PM by TEPaul »