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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
John Kirk,

It was intended to draw out the giggling...I need someone I can talk to when I'm talking to the other JK...

I think you'll find plenty of new bent on the courses you will likely see in our area. Poa is around, but not too too much on these lists.

Look forward to testing your hypothesis at my course next summer...I've seen no better spot for firm and fast and the terrain and architecture to really illustrate (on this side of the pond) than HVCC.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
JES II,

Good.  As the late winter approaches, I'll begin to make specific plans to come in May or June.

I read the HVCC maintenance article on our site carefully, so I really want to see that in person.  Gotta go for a few hours.


Peter Pallotta

I do like this thread, but I would've thought that a line like
"The best of the moderns compare favourably to some of the classics, with the very best from either era forming a class by themselves" might've wrapped it up a while ago.  :)  

Peter


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
But whose trying to wrap things up?

John Kavanaugh

But whose trying to wrap things up?

The Golfweek guys have tried with their Where's Wardo diversions.

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
I do like this thread, but I would've thought that a line like
"The best of the moderns compare favourably to some of the classics, with the very best from either era forming a class by themselves" might've wrapped it up a while ago.  :)  

Peter



Since when has an eminently reasonable statement like this wrapped up a thread?  There's no such thing as a thread-stopper.

Peter Pallotta

It's just me JES - every once in a while I feel the need to get a final and definitive 'answer' on one of these things. The thought of an ENDLESS discussion kind of freaks me out... But then "yes" or "no" would've done the trick here.

Peter

Phil - my bad, especially since I've probably flogged more than my share of dead horses around here...
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 12:20:17 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
JK,

Do you really think you have the Golfweek guys twitching with this question?

I don't know who they are, but if they are I'll really be confused.

Do you doubt that there are a couple of hundred courses that could jump into the bottom 50 without causing a ripple?

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of the differences between the top 10 classic and modern is how many classics are major championship sites (Oakmont, Shinnecock, Merion, Pebble and others I can't remember off the top of my head).  The top 10 moderns are generally not major or even tournament sites.

Will moderns ever supplant the classics as major venues?  Maybe not if John's forecast is correct that the great new courses will be built in remote places accessible mainly to rich people.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Barney,

PLEASE PLAY LAWSONIA.

Mike

The Vincennes Elks course not nine miles from my house is a Langford/Moreau course and I have played it for the last 30 years. My son plays his Junior High golf there  I just don't see anything different from the pictures at Lawsonia.  I will play Lawsonia if someone offers to join me but it doesn't seem worth playing alone.

John,
 I don't know you, other than you like to make controversial statements to get people wound up, but what you said sounds idiotic. You are really going to base your understanding of L&M work on some po-dunk 9 holer and not on a course that is considered there definitive work? If you are saying that with a straight face, i have to assume you are of questionable intelligence.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

John Kavanaugh

Barney,

PLEASE PLAY LAWSONIA.

Mike

The Vincennes Elks course not nine miles from my house is a Langford/Moreau course and I have played it for the last 30 years. My son plays his Junior High golf there  I just don't see anything different from the pictures at Lawsonia.  I will play Lawsonia if someone offers to join me but it doesn't seem worth playing alone.

John,
 I don't know you, other than you like to make controversial statements to get people wound up, but what you said sounds idiotic. You are really going to base your understanding of L&M work on some po-dunk 9 holer and not on a course that is considered there definitive work? If you are saying that with a straight face, i have to assume you are of questionable intelligence.

I don't know where you get off using po-dunk when referring to the Vincennes Elks.  I love L&M and am very proud of the fact that their work resides in my local.  What do I gain from playing Lawsonia?  What can I add to the world of golf by playing Lawsonia?  Everybody already knows that cheap and good is a great mix.  I'm sure as hell not going to pay $25 including cart and tell people it is not worth the trip.

Now Erin Hills...That is a must play.  I can do the world some good by playing there.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

Now Erin Hills...That is a must play.  I can do the world some good by playing there.

I won't be holding my hand on my ass...

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Barney,

PLEASE PLAY LAWSONIA.

Mike

The Vincennes Elks course not nine miles from my house is a Langford/Moreau course and I have played it for the last 30 years. My son plays his Junior High golf there  I just don't see anything different from the pictures at Lawsonia.  I will play Lawsonia if someone offers to join me but it doesn't seem worth playing alone.

John,
 I don't know you, other than you like to make controversial statements to get people wound up, but what you said sounds idiotic. You are really going to base your understanding of L&M work on some po-dunk 9 holer and not on a course that is considered there definitive work? If you are saying that with a straight face, i have to assume you are of questionable intelligence.

I don't know where you get off using po-dunk when referring to the Vincennes Elks.  I love L&M and am very proud of the fact that their work resides in my local.  What do I gain from playing Lawsonia?  What can I add to the world of golf by playing Lawsonia?  Everybody already knows that cheap and good is a great mix.  I'm sure as hell not going to pay $25 including cart and tell people it is not worth the trip.

Now Erin Hills...That is a must play.  I can do the world some good by playing there.

I guess you won't learn anything with your eyes wide shut...
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

John Kavanaugh

Ralph,

What is there to learn by me playing Lawsonia?  I already know it is a great place to play, what else is there?

Seriously...I will go play the course if there is anything in it for me.  I can be selfish that way.

John Kavanaugh


Now Erin Hills...That is a must play.  I can do the world some good by playing there.

I won't be holding my hand on my ass...

Jes,

Which would you find more interesting...my report on Erin Hills or Lawsonia?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'd read with interest your report on either...

Why don't you play both and report a comparison...

I don't see myself playing either anytime soon so that doesn't really come into play...

« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 01:48:23 PM by JES II »

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ralph,

What is there to learn by me playing Lawsonia?  I already know it is a great place to play, what else is there?

Seriously...I will go play the course if there is anything in it for me.  I can be selfish that way.

Don't go to Lawsonia. You have made up your mind about the course and nothing good will come of it.

"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

John Kavanaugh

Ralph,

What is there to learn by me playing Lawsonia?  I already know it is a great place to play, what else is there?

Seriously...I will go play the course if there is anything in it for me.  I can be selfish that way.

Don't go to Lawsonia. You have made up your mind about the course and nothing good will come of it.



Ralph,

I also believe that Shinnecock is a great course.  Would you recommend I not play it either?  I would play Shinnecock if it was 47 miles away and $25 including cart.  I am sincere in asking you what I could learn from playing Lawsonia.  I don't think you understand that I'm not making this stuff up and post everything with a straight face.  

Please, just give me a sniff of what I might gain from the experience.  Will my profit be worth the expense and why?

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ralph,

What is there to learn by me playing Lawsonia?  I already know it is a great place to play, what else is there?

Seriously...I will go play the course if there is anything in it for me.  I can be selfish that way.

Don't go to Lawsonia. You have made up your mind about the course and nothing good will come of it.



Ralph,

I also believe that Shinnecock is a great course.  Would you recommend I not play it either?  I would play Shinnecock if it was 47 miles away and $25 including cart.  I am sincere in asking you what I could learn from playing Lawsonia.  I don't think you understand that I'm not making this stuff up and post everything with a straight face.  

Please, just give me a sniff of what I might gain from the experience.  Will my profit be worth the expense and why?

I just don't understand someone that professes and interest in architecture but when within spitting distance of a course that defines an architects life work won't go to see it.
We are different animals. I will run, not walk when given these opportunities.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim Nugent

John, if I understand you, you're not keen to play Lawsonia because you already played another course by the same architect, and feel you understand the style.

Would you turn down the chance to play NGLA, because you already played St. Louis CC?  

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
John:

I won't respond on behalf of Ralph, but here's my own take on what one could learn from playing Lawsonia.

By many accounts, Lawsonia is regarded as something of the zenith of Langford and Moreau's course designing and engineering -- severely pushed-up greens, wide, gull-winged bunkers backed by severe mounding, significant internal green contouring, the wide playing corridors providing various lines of play, the intentional use of blindness and misdirection to give the golfer pause before taking on the next shot. It's all on display on all 18 holes of Lawsonia.

The course was built in 1930, and although L/M did some courses after that, the Depression took a major toll on their design business, and apparently few L/M courses built after Lawsonia really matched it for displaying their (somewhat) unique look.

There is a view that L/M's style was an evolutionary one -- e.g., the notion of severely pushed-up greens was not in evidence in earlier designed L/M courses (to cite one example, Wisconsin's Ozaukee Country Club, built in 1922), nor was the severity of their deep bunkering.

I've been toying with a theory that L/M's signature style was more a product of money -- that is, the kind of architecture on display at Lawsonia cost a bunch of money, and therefore L/M had more license to do more extravagant work on well-financed projects (to see some of Lawsonia's green complexes, knowing what they had to work with in terms of technology back in 1930, suggests they had to spend a lot of money to build the course, and they did).

To me, it would be interesting to compare the look of Vincennes (a 1921 course from my sources) to that of Lawsonia. I note that several L/M courses with very dramatic features -- West Bend, Harrison Hills, Culver Academies -- were only nine hole courses, and one of those (West Bend) had plans for 18 but the club essentially ran out of money.

To me, the question of whether L/M's signature look was an evolutionary one, or one dictated by other forces, is worth pursuing, through playing as many of their courses as possible.

I guess I need to make it down to Vincennes! And apologies, for prior commitments keep me from hosting you this Saturday at Lawsonia (where I could show you the genius of the 8th hole, for starters, and argue that the par 3 4th is a harder hole than the par 3 10th, a notion at odds with Ron Forse...).

Can you do Lawsonia on Monday? That I can do.




Peter Pallotta

"Please, just give me a sniff of what I might gain from the experience."  

John, at the very least you'd have the experience itself, no?

You don't strike me as someone who's notching great golf courses on his bedpost, but if you've heard that a course is very good, don't you think you'd enjoy playing it?

Isn't that enough?

I think what Ralph might not understand (I don't) is what "more" a course could do for you, or you for it  -- unless you mean you'd like to have your recommendations mean something, i.e. to underappreciated courses

Peter

John Kavanaugh

Ralph,

Why does Lawsonia define their lifes work.  I was under the impression that it was a big budget job quite out of the ordinary for the pair.


John Kavanaugh

John, if I understand you, you're not keen to play Lawsonia because you already played another course by the same architect, and feel you understand the style.

Would you turn down the chance to play NGLA, because you already played St. Louis CC?  

I turned down the chance to play NGLA two weeks ago because I was going to a football game.  I would however play NGLA if I was within 47 miles and it was $25 cart included.  I do have very little interest to play NGLA simply because I don't see where I could bring anything to the table discussion wise.  My single biggest current interest is the view of Sebonack.

John Kavanaugh

John:

I won't respond on behalf of Ralph, but here's my own take on what one could learn from playing Lawsonia.

By many accounts, Lawsonia is regarded as something of the zenith of Langford and Moreau's course designing and engineering -- severely pushed-up greens, wide, gull-winged bunkers backed by severe mounding, significant internal green contouring, the wide playing corridors providing various lines of play, the intentional use of blindness and misdirection to give the golfer pause before taking on the next shot. It's all on display on all 18 holes of Lawsonia.

The course was built in 1930, and although L/M did some courses after that, the Depression took a major toll on their design business, and apparently few L/M courses built after Lawsonia really matched it for displaying their (somewhat) unique look.

There is a view that L/M's style was an evolutionary one -- e.g., the notion of severely pushed-up greens was not in evidence in earlier designed L/M courses (to cite one example, Wisconsin's Ozaukee Country Club, built in 1922), nor was the severity of their deep bunkering.

I've been toying with a theory that L/M's signature style was more a product of money -- that is, the kind of architecture on display at Lawsonia cost a bunch of money, and therefore L/M had more license to do more extravagant work on well-financed projects (to see some of Lawsonia's green complexes, knowing what they had to work with in terms of technology back in 1930, suggests they had to spend a lot of money to build the course, and they did).

To me, it would be interesting to compare the look of Vincennes (a 1921 course from my sources) to that of Lawsonia. I note that several L/M courses with very dramatic features -- West Bend, Harrison Hills, Culver Academies -- were only nine hole courses, and one of those (West Bend) had plans for 18 but the club essentially ran out of money.

To me, the question of whether L/M's signature look was an evolutionary one, or one dictated by other forces, is worth pursuing, through playing as many of their courses as possible.

I guess I need to make it down to Vincennes! And apologies, for prior commitments keep me from hosting you this Saturday at Lawsonia (where I could show you the genius of the 8th hole, for starters, and argue that the par 3 4th is a harder hole than the par 3 10th, a notion at odds with Ron Forse...).

Can you do Lawsonia on Monday? That I can do.





Thanks for the above post.  I am going to print out directions and if my plane lands on time, I manage to get some sleep tonight, I will drive up and play.  I can't play on Monday because I have class until dark.  What is the nearest poker roon to Lawsonia?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 03:26:32 PM by John Kavanaugh »

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