[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played 62 of the courses on the classic list.  Of those there are a few that are marginal.  They are courses that I like and even enjoy but seem to be a cut below top 100 status.  I will be like sticking my hand in a blender but I’ll go out on a limb and name some of them”
Ekwanok---Too many plain or ordinary holes.
Northland---on an interesting piece of property and certainly but have played a bunch of courses of equal quality.
Shoreacres---This will get me a lot of grief, but as much as I like the course it too has some very ordinary holes especially beginning and end.
Salem—I just don’t like it.  But that makes it hard for me to know where it belongs.
East Lake---I applaud Tom Cousins for his work and it is excellent and a good venue for the pros just not top 100 in my estimation.
Interlachen—Again excellent but have played many that are its equal.
Kittansett---The high ranking of this course has always baffled me.
NCR South---Very good and Maybe Dick Wilson’s best effort there are others that could vie for its high rating.
Skokie----there must be 200 course as good.
Belair----Great atmosphere and bridge but….
Canterbury---the inclusion of this course on top 100  lists astounds me.  Good piece of property and some wonderful holes but so do 500 other courses in the country.

I have said it before.  There are probably 400, maybe 500 courses that could be in the top 100.  These fall into that category even if they would not be in my top 100.

[Mike Benham]

John –

Some interesting thoughts.  Although I agree with points #1 and #2, #3 can only be applied to Private Clubs and some resort courses, as time will tell how the surrounding land is developed on many courses.   A look at the old Pasatiempo photos tells us that a once pristine setting became a cramped housing development.

I don’t see point #4 as being relevant to most golfers or a good thing.  Although amateurs can hit the ball farther with modern equipment, I suspect most amateurs don’t play the back tees and are comfortable with 6,500 yard tee boxes.  

And what characteristics of being designed into the modern course to support the modern ball?  Perhaps the RTJ courses, with lots of carries over bunkers and water?  I would suggest that many of the recent designs, Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, promote options around the greens.

Mike


Ps:  I like this thread too …

[Peter Pallotta]

John K
Your post #44 was a very good one.

As an aside, one other parallel might be that, from what I can tell, some of the then-new courses in the 1910s and 20s were pretty quickly being hailed as amongst the best in the country (though the parallel breaks down because there was not a big number of 'classic' courses in America back then; I guess the 'comparison' was with British links courses).

Lots of good posts on this thread, thanks.

Peter

[Lester George]

Brad,

You really need to include the Old White at the Greenbrier on the list.  I think it is a far greater example of MacDonald/Raynor than most.  If you haven't played it, you should.  If you have, I would hope you would agree.

Lester

[David Stamm]

I believe some courses being built today are, if not just as good, almost as good as the best the GA has to offer. I truly hope for the benefit for all that this trend continues with SH, Ballyneal, Bandon, Friars Head, Rustic and Stone Eagle being examples of what can and will be done in the future. However, I believe the work that has and will be performed will be done by a much smaller group of arch compared to the majority that is not producing designs that are both great for all levels of golfers and will stand the test of time.

  The question is will the vast majority of golfers be able to tell the difference? Can they tell the difference now? Remove the "eye candy" from PB and can they tell why holes like number 8 are so good? Remove a golfer from the Orange County wasteland in So Cal where he plays all of his golf and put him on Riviera and can he tell why the course is so good? Does he WANT to know? I WANT to believe the "masses" will demand better and better courses, but by who's definition? Do the majority want to have to think their way around, a trait I think all would agree is an important ingredient to a "great" course. Does strategy mean something to the majority? I don't think, JK, that the answer in the affirmative is mutually exclusive to the well to do because they can get there in their Gulfstream IV's. Remember, many of the GA's courses were changed by the wealthy class back in the day, in many cases for the worse because they didn't "get it".   And expensive courses don't equate to greatness. Too much money has been spent to artificially bolster the perception that more is more. I do agree with some of your points about ease of travel and communication.

[David Stamm]

I will go so far to say that great potential was lost from 1960 until 2000 as golf attempted to be all things to all people.  Now with exclusive resorts like Bandon and privates like found in the Sand Hills we are hitting stride.  Just take Oregon, Colorado and Nebraska and the modern courses and architects are burying the old guys.  I say..about time.

Burying? I assume you've played them all to arrive at this conclusion, both new and classic?

[David Stamm]

I am banking on future courses being built not changes of opinion being formed.

I sincerely hope you are correct.

[Steve Lapper]

What happened to Matt Ward?

I've heard but cannot verify that Matt was caddying this summer at Alpine Country Club in Demarest NJ...

Noel:

  I heard he kidnapped the "famous" Matt Ward and is now giving those booming 1010 NEWS Traffic reports daily!

[Noel Freeman]

Slapper, I could see Matt so far in the woods trying to find one of his MAMMOTH tee shots that he just built a cabin like Henry David Throeau and just decided to churn out his treatise or tome on the Wardian Golf Ethic.

[cary lichtenstein]

Brad,

You really need to include the Old White at the Greenbrier on the list.  I think it is a far greater example of MacDonald/Raynor than most.  If you haven't played it, you should.  If you have, I would hope you would agree.

Lester

I would have to agree, loved Olde White

[Jason Mandel]

Brad,

You really need to include the Old White at the Greenbrier on the list.  I think it is a far greater example of MacDonald/Raynor than most.  If you haven't played it, you should.  If you have, I would hope you would agree.

Lester

I would have to agree, loved Olde White

I played Old White before Lestor's work and before knowing that I cared at all about golf architecture.

I played the Greenbriar course and then the Old White course and came away saying how much more I liked Old White...

The pics I saw of it recently really look special.

Jason

[Jason Mandel]

I thought Tobacco Road was OK.  I wasn't fond of Bull's Bay.  I didn't like Frederica.  I found great and not so great at Sebonack.  For different reasons, I highly regard Hidden Creek, Sand Hills, Beechtree, Glen Mills, White Manor and Lederach.  Maybe this perspective helps you to understand my decision making.

Wayne,

I have to guess your dislike of Bulls Bay comes from the artifical hill/mountain, whatever you want to call it?
If so, thats fine.  

But how about the creativity in the greens and the rest of the course?  

I really knew nothing about the course before playing it a few years ago and was blown away by the place.  I think I just accepted the manmade hill for what it was.  I wouldn't want it at every course I played but for some reason I thought it worked at BB.

Also, I'm not sure if you heard this story or not, but apprently the nature of that hill/mountain dates back to the owner being at Shinnecock and asking Mike to create something that resembled that.

Jason

[Jim Nugent]

A link: http://www.golfweek.com/lifestyles/golfweeksbest/classic/

I counted a full 29 courses that don't strike me as must plays.  Don't even ask which 29.  

Maybe you already answered this question, but I didn't see it:

Are there 29 other classic courses that DO strike you as must plays, and should take their place in the top 100?

Or do you think there are only 71 truly outstanding classic courses?  

[JESII]

I have played 18 of the classic 100 and would prefer any combination of 8 of them to the 8 I have played off the modern 100.

Of the modern's, I have played #'s 7 - 13 - 14 - 25 - 32 - 64 - 77 and 93.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have played 18 of the classic 100 and would prefer any combination of 8 of them to the 8 I have played off the modern 100.

Of the modern's, I have played #'s 7 - 13 - 14 - 25 - 32 - 64 - 77 and 93.

That is a lousy taste of modern courses.  The only one that is a must play for me would be #77 Hidden Creek.  

[JESII]

Hidden Creek is my favorite of the bunch for sure...I'd even put it in the classics list if I didn't know any better...

[JESII]

Which of the classics in the bottom 50 have you played?

[John Kavanaugh]

Which of the classics in the bottom 50 have you played?

66, 69 and 92.  I am not concerned where I have played, only where I want to play.  I might play Lawsonia (55) tomorrow or I might play holdem at the Ho Chunk.  It's a toss up.

[JSlonis]

I've played 29 of the courses on the classic list and for me there is one glaring omission...Where is Ross' Mountain Ridge CC(NJ)?

For me, it is a slam dunk top 100 for this list.

[JESII]

Understood, but your high expectations have come from somewhere...it sounds like the three you have played are pretty good...maybe you're just listening to the wrong people...like John Kirk suggesting that the grass is better on the new courses...

I could take you on a tour of the bottom 50 classics within two hours of my house that might change your mind about whether ot not they should have been "must plays"...

[John Kavanaugh]

I've played 29 of the courses on the classic list and for me there is one glaring omission...Where is Ross' Mountain Ridge CC?

It hangs out with Lookout Mountain at the bar.  Lookout Mountain is a must play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Understood, but your high expectations have come from somewhere...it sounds like the three you have played are pretty good...maybe you're just listening to the wrong people...like John Kirk suggesting that the grass is better on the new courses...

I could take you on a tour of the bottom 50 classics within two hours of my house that might change your mind about whether ot not they should have been "must plays"...

Jes,

If I lived where you do I would feel different.  My must plays are where I must play not some stranger with $2.95 and an airport layover.

[John Kirk]

Understood, but your high expectations have come from somewhere...it sounds like the three you have played are pretty good...maybe you're just listening to the wrong people...like John Kirk suggesting that the grass is better on the new courses...

I could take you on a tour of the bottom 50 classics within two hours of my house that might change your mind about whether ot not they should have been "must plays"...

Alternating between mouth agape and giggling.

You don't think fescue and bent are better grasses than poa annua?

Just like you, I wish to be perceived as objective and not crazy.  It looks like I may be coming to your hometown next year, where a sanity check can be administered.

I looked at each list.  In each case, I've played about 8 or 10 of the top 50 and 3 or 4 of the bottom 50.

[Mike Hendren]

Barney,

PLEASE PLAY LAWSONIA.

Mike

[John Kavanaugh]

Barney,

PLEASE PLAY LAWSONIA.

Mike

The Vincennes Elks course not nine miles from my house is a Langford/Moreau course and I have played it for the last 30 years. My son plays his Junior High golf there  I just don't see anything different from the pictures at Lawsonia.  I will play Lawsonia if someone offers to join me but it doesn't seem worth playing alone.

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