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Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
John:

As for casinos, from Green Lake, it's probably a crap-shoot between the Ho-Chunk casino just north of Baraboo:

www.ho-chunk.com

and the Oneida one near Green Bay:

http://www.oneidabingoandcasino.net

The Baraboo one probably is somewhat closer in terms of getting you to Erin Hills on Sunday.

If you do go to the one outside Baraboo, and don't want to take part in the buffet lines for lunch/dinner, head into Baraboo proper, find the cute little town square (complete with an old Ringling Bros. theatre; it's circus country), and find the Little Village Cafe for a very good Tex-Mex meal in the middle of Cheeseland. Tell John and Christine I sent you. It's hard to find a better meal in those parts.



SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
I don't have much to add as I am late to this party.   Allow me to observe that all ratings are subjective by definition.  The theory is that by exposing the courses to a large enough sample of "qualified" raters the quirks contained in each individual's subjective assessment will even out and a consensus position will be reached.  It is also obvious that, given the relatively narrow spreads in the numerical ratings, changes within the rankings, particularly at the lower end, can occur without significant controversy.

The bifurcation between "classic" and "modern" courses works as a marketing tool.  It also presents an interesting opportunity to evaluate the impact of technology on course design.  Which is better?  Its really a matter of taste.  I would suggest that the classical courses have withstood the judgement of time whereas many of the moderns are simply too new for us to determine where they ultimately will rest.  The numerous times that new hyped courses come "out of the box" very high in the rankings only to fall steadily, sometimes out of sight, suggests that some time is needed to determine where a course belongs.  Thus the classic courses are more likely to retain their status vis a vis each other and the modern courses should be given some time before we suggest that they supplant those with proven staying power.  This could happen, I am merely suggesting that we should not jump the gun.

I agree with Barney that as you go further down the list for both classical and modern courses the quality decreases but I would observe that would be expected as, after all, the ratings are numerical; they are supposed to get worse as you go down the list (or less outstanding for the sensitive).  Whether one would deem them mediocre or use a less pejorative term is a matter of taste.  Mediocre is not a term I would use for many of the courses I have played on these lists.  But I agree that there are numerous courses that could be substituted in the lower tier without any real complaints.  There are a lot of very nice golf courses which are just below the cut line..

I won't comment on the superiority of grasses and the like even though I spend a lot of time involved with greenkeeping issues.  The courses on these lists rarely have playability issues and I view these arguments as rather weak "make weight".

Finally the last grand question; should my friend Barney play Lawsonia?  Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn!  Do what makes you happy.  But at least be consistent.  On the one hand you ask, what good would it do for golf if you played Lawsonia and in the next post you ask whats in it for you?  Those appear to be somewhat contradictory, but lets answer them.

It probably won't make any difference to golf whether you, or I or for that matter any one of us plays Lawsonia or any other course. None of us are that important nor do any of our opinions carry that much weight.  As far as what it will do for you, you might have a good time on an interesting course.  You might learn something, if you're receptive, but you might not.  You have already indicated you don't learn from reading works by the old masters so I can't predict what you'll learn from playing.  But I don't know whether you'll gain anything from playing Erin Hills either.  Each of us has a finite yet unknown amount of time to spend on this orb.  Since there is no moral imperative involved, do what you think will make you happy.  But don't elevate your choice to anything more than that.  We all spend a lot of time analyzing GCA and we all take it too seriously, myself included in spades.  But sometimes we get carried away about its and our importance.

I hope you have a great time and I'll be interested in your reactions.  You're always welcome to join me at my place.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Shivas;
  A warning against brat slippage followed by truth through chaos.  What a remarkable stream of consciousness.  I will ponder the connection.

John Kavanaugh


But I don't know whether you'll gain anything from playing Erin Hills either.  


This is where we differ.  I believe that Lawsonia has found its place in the world of golf while Erin Hills is still searching.  I see great benefit and fun in playing living architects work and then letting them know your opinions.  Mainly for you and some for the architect.  I love to play new courses...Every voice, no matter how small, plays a role in postitioning the course in the golf world.

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

Did you at least take my advice on hiring some type of caddie for Erin Hills?

by the way, PLAY LAWSONIA!

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

John Kavanaugh

John,

Did you at least take my advice on hiring some type of caddie for Erin Hills?

by the way, PLAY LAWSONIA!

Jason

No...I don't believe a great design needs a caddie and I don't give a shit if I lose a ball.  I do think I will get a guy who has played there before in my group.

Peter Pallotta

SL - fine post, as always. A comment. You say:

"Which is better?  Its really a matter of taste.  I would suggest that the classical courses have withstood the judgement of time whereas many of the moderns are simply too new for us to determine where they ultimately will rest.  The numerous times that new hyped courses come "out of the box" very high in the rankings only to fall steadily, sometimes out of sight, suggests that some time is needed to determine where a course belongs."

I'm not so sure. I was one who argued that a golf course can be great even if very few like it/thinks so. I think there are some fundamental principles of good architecture that are constantly being (and must be) either stated or implicitely assumed for any kind of genuine discussion to take place.
I've read that NGLA, after initially being very highly-regarded, didn't 'rank' very high for many, many years before eventually being rediscovered. Does that mean that it was great once, somehow lost that greatness, and then suddenly became great again? It seems to me that, since IT didn't very change, I have to assume that WE did -- but then what does that really tell us about NGLA?

Yes, I think 'time' is one kind of test, especially when referencing yearly rankings of new courses from several publications with varying aims/goals, panelists and procedures; but I'm not sure that 'time' will alter much the 'objective reality' of a course's qualities and/or excellences.  

And yes, I think you're right that how a course's reality will be COMPARED to other courses, and how it will be 'ranked', are more ephemeral matters; but I'm not sure it's a simply "matter of taste".

What do you think?

Peter  
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 04:36:59 PM by Peter Pallotta »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Peter;  Thanks, a very thoughtful post.  I agree that a course's ability to measure up to objective standards of good design are present upon opening and proper grow-in and, absent significant redesigns or changes in the nature of the game via equipment or maintenance changes, should not change much.  Nonetheless, I think that sometimes the excitement generated by a new and touted course blurs the ability of many first time players to properly evaluate it.  Moreover, some of the best courses reveal themselves best over multiple plays under different conditions.  That is  a weakness of most rating systems as raters rarely play a course several times before rating.

We agree regarding the impact on and ephemeral nature of certain ratings.

Barney;  I understand better whats in it for you.  I perceive that you find playing new courses to be more fun than playing established courses because the "thrill of discovery" is  important to you.  I think thats great and now I have a better understanding of your preference for new over old.  Enjoy yourself.  Each to his own on issues of this type.  As for me, if I haven't played it, a course is new to me so modern
 or classical makes no difference regarding that particular motivation.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
John - forget all the analytical mumbo jumbo, go up and play the Lawsonia pair.  You, an experienced golfer and student of gca, will walk away thinking your day was well spent - something a traveling golfer finds less and less nowadays.

JC

Jim Nugent


I've read that NGLA, after initially being very highly-regarded, didn't 'rank' very high for many, many years before eventually being rediscovered. Does that mean that it was great once, somehow lost that greatness, and then suddenly became great again? It seems to me that, since IT didn't very change, I have to assume that WE did -- but then what does that really tell us about NGLA?

Yes, I think 'time' is one kind of test, especially when referencing yearly rankings of new courses from several publications with varying aims/goals, panelists and procedures; but I'm not sure that 'time' will alter much the 'objective reality' of a course's qualities and/or excellences.  

And yes, I think you're right that how a course's reality will be COMPARED to other courses, and how it will be 'ranked', are more ephemeral matters; but I'm not sure it's a simply "matter of taste".

Peter  

I'm not 100% sure, but think that NGLA fell on somewhat hard times in those interim years.  Ran says, "A primary reason that The National Links plays exceptionally well today is because of the work performed by its last two Green Keepers. Firstly, beginning in the late 1980s, Karl Olson began reversing several decades of neglect by clearing trees and brush, restoring fairway width and playing angles to the course, and recapturing lost bunkers and green sizes."

I believe the same is true for Yale and Bethpage Black, to name two.  Great designs, neglected for decades, and then brought back to prominence.  i.e. the courses DID change in significant ways.  That is one reason they were ranked high, then low, then high again.  

Salieri was considered an all-time great in his time.  Now he is a footnote to Mozart.  Van Gogh was a no-name loser in his time.  Now he is an immortal.  While trends change, time usually sorts that out.  

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