[wsmorrison]

Ron Forse mentioned that Robert White's excellent Road Hole is at North Shore CC in Glen Head, LI.  Ron mentioned that White did a Redan (#3) and an Eden (#5) at Longue Vue Club in Pittsburgh.

[Peter Pallotta]

Can someone explain to me what the significance might be of the following quote from Macdonald. It's from his hole-by-hole description of Lido:

"The third hole is a copy of the Eden, or eleventh, at St. Andrew in Scotland. The only point here is that the bank protecting the green has been made much steeper than that at St. Andrews or the other holes built in this country modelled after the eleventh at St. Andrews."

Why would the bank have been made much steeper? What does this do to the playing characteristics of the 'Eden' hole? He doesn't mention other American 'Edens' by name, but why is he stressing that none have so steep a bank?

Thanks
Peter

[George_Bahto]

North Shore Road Hole:

The Road hole (green) at North Shore is all about the green itself rather than the tee shot or the (intended) pot bunker, which is offset to the left and quite large.

The front run up area of the green is absolutely one of the best and is very similar to the frontal approach to the NGLA Road green.

The bunkering representing the “road” at St Andrews is on the right side. It was once a long (very long) strip that was cut up into 4 bunkers. I’m not sure what Ron did to that bunker but if restored as original the golfer would have one heck of a long walk around the back (considering he exited from the rear of the bunker .....what? Are you kidding - exiting a bunker properly?)

The North Shore Road hole green is excellent and a very literal representation.

[jefffraim]

George,

It looks as though that green has shrunk tremendously. I could see the right edge of that green reaching to the bottom left corner of the picture.

How come there isn't a road "bunker" behind?

Jeff

[jefffraim]

Whoops!! The bottom RIGHT edge of this photograph.

Sorry!!!

[Mike Tanner]

The Cavalier Golf & Yacht Club in Virginia Beach is a Charles Banks design ca. 1928 and rehabilitated (how's that for avoiding the renovated/restored controversy?) by Lester George. Among its collection of par-3s is a classic Biarritz and the finishing hole (yes, a real old school design feature), a Redan hole with a twist -- the tee shot is played over water, but otherwise the high mound on the right of the green and bunker front left are as you would expect. I've not had the pleasure of playing any of CB MacDonald or Seth Raynor's courses, so every time I'm invited to play at the Cavalier, I count myself fortunate.

Mike

[George_Bahto]

Jeff - hi, long time no talk:

That picture was before Ron Force worked on the course - probably 5 years ago or so. That version of the Road hole green pad is quite a triangle, almost to too much of a point but very interesting - the “point” of the triangle comes to the lower right of that picture.

What really caught my attention was all that movement on the run up to the green. Lots of pins placements from the middle of the green on back and on the green itself.

Jeff, from the angle of the picture you cannot see the rear middle portion of the green - it is dead straight down the middle of the picture and the green falls away toward the back.

What you see on the left is the berm of the replication of the pot bunker sort of along the left oblique of the green.

The Road bunker(s) is/are along the right side of the hole and to the right of the photo.

The photo is a bit misleading if you haven’t seen the green. I was just trying to capture the front features.

Also on the course are two double plateau green and they are right across the cartpath from each other.

It was originally Glenwood CC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter Pallota,

That might have been a concession to the location (drainage)and the fact that millions of cubic yards of sand were introduced to the site to get it above the water level in the area.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Patrick - I'd read once (but forgotten) about the nature of the Lido site, and so that well may be the right answer.  I just assumed that the possibility of a run-up approach shot was an important aspect of the Eden, so that a steep bank protecting the green would alter the character of the hole...and if that's the case, wondered why CBM tried to duplicate it on such an 'unfriendly' site  

Peter

[Doug Siebert]

Peter,

I know nothing about the Lido's, but the original Eden has the steepest slope you can imagine fronting it between the two bunkers and it seems rather well regarded!

To be honest, the only way I'd ever consider trying to play a run up there would be if I had a really really strong wind that just made the idea of an airborne ball silly.  I've had the pin cut on the precarious edge of that slope between the two bunkers both times I've played the hole, and both times managed to left a nice high shot just over the bunker on the right (Shell?) and have it stick there pin high, but I've probably just been lucky so far  The one thing I did learn was to deliberately leave that putt a couple feet above the hole, since the first time I tried to make it and had my third putt from way down below between the two bunkers...

While I think it'd be a fun challenge to try to roll the ball up that narrow opening, those playing for score would probably be better off laying up and playing it as the world's shortest par 4, to avoid the risk of playing it as the world's shortest par 6.

[Ari Techner]

My favorite of the templates is always the Biarritz with the full green.  I love the different challenge that it can present depending on the day, wind, pin placement etc.  Watching my dad who is not a good putter 2 putt from the bottom of the swale at the 17th at Fox Chapel is something I will never forget.  I have played Shoreacres quite a few times and have hit anything from a 3 wood into a stiff wind to a back pin to a 9 iron with the wind at my back and the pin in front.  

My favorite Biarritz would have to be Yale followed by Fox Chapel and Shoreacres.  

My favorite Short is at Shoreacres followed by Lookout Mountain and Fox Chapel.  

My favorite Redan is at Fox Chapel followed by Blue Mound and Yale.

My favorite Eden is at Lookout Mountain followed closely by Shoreacres.  

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