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Mike Nuzzo

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What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« on: October 30, 2007, 06:18:33 PM »
A friend and I were talking golf a while back -- I should say he asked me a few questions.
He is not familiar with the game, and never played.
I don't recall what he said, but he certainly didn't know that the hole was moved -- every day.

His eyes lit up and he understood how different things could be.

So when talking to a non-golfer, what items should you share with them that seem obvious to you, but actually aren't, and have a big impact on the game.

The hole moves ever day -- changing how the hole can be played.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mark_F

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 06:25:09 PM »
Golf courses are more fun, for a longer period of time, when you can't see everything laid out in front of you.

Jason McNamara

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2007, 07:01:43 PM »
Mike -

The short par 4 that is drivable downwind would be fairly counter-intuitive in many cases.  Hit more club if the wind is helping, hit (much) less club if the wind is hurting.  More generally, the role of prevailing winds...

Would it be obvious to a non-golfer that the GA will sometimes try to goad a player into a poor decision?  (Edit:  Heck, that's not obvious to a lot of golfers!)

Bunkers used as targets and "safety nets" (preventing worse results) might not be expected either.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:04:21 PM by Jason McNamara »

Andrew Summerell

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Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 07:23:08 PM »
It probably depends how much & regularly you talk to them.

E.g. My wife is not a golfer, but she supports my love of the game & understands my love for golf course architecture. I try not to talk too much to her about it for fear of boring her, but occasionally I will tell her about a new course I played or give her a run down of my latest trip.

One day we were going for a drive & having a chat, & I was telling her about a course that was being built which was in financial trouble & way over budget. She replied by saying, “I thought golf course design was about building a course that was fun for all levels of golfers while moving the least amount of dirt possible. Sounds like they need to keep things simple”

That shut me up for the next half hour. I think it has been education via osmosis.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:24:17 PM by Andrew Summerell »

Mike_Young

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Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 07:32:07 PM »
Mike,
I would tell him nothing....say if you wish to play golf...buy used clubs...take lessons and when you become obsessed we will talk architecture...until that time...no need.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 07:39:15 PM »
The game started in Scotland over the linksland.....and has evolved from there.

There are numerous different types of golf courses, each of them having two things in common.

18 tees

18 greens

Play as many different styles as you can.

Then let's talk about what you like.....and why.


What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 07:46:27 PM »
Golf is a game played on the largest game board of any.  

Think of Monopoly played on a board the size of a small city.  Think of the number of options available as you wander down the 18 squares representing that city and the infinite combinations as you play along.

On top of that add the difficulty of hitting a smal ball with a club that travels over 27' during the swing.  

Now that is some game!!  

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 08:25:48 PM »
I liken it to playing Chess and Billiards. You are constantly thinking about where to leave the ball for the next shot.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Philip Spogard

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Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2007, 07:23:17 AM »
I feel, you should try and describe the game as simply as possible - but talking and describing architecture is slightly different.

When it comes to describing golf course architecture to non-golfers (and most golfers as well), I often compare it to building and landscape architecture - which they often relate to much better as they have an idea of the concepts you use here;

How you as an architect try to analyze the land to maximize its potential and build with the land to reduce costs and make it 'fit' better with the site. This is directly comparable to much building architecture.

Then you can also better explain how and why different eras exist in golf design (penal, strategic, etc.) as most people seem to be aware of 'similiar' changes' taking place in the history of building architecture (modernism, art-deco, etc.).

It is easy to explain and understand desirable components of a routing, e.g. variety, returning nines, etc. I find this a good place to stop as it often becomes 'information overload' after this.

It is my clear impression that most golfers do not even consider that there is so much thought and engineering put into the creation of a golf course.

If they are interested in learning more about it, I will let them ask the questions as you can easily get lost in so many details.

wsmorrison

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2007, 07:35:50 AM »
Talk about golf to a non-golfer?  For the longest time, I thought what's the point?  But after 18 years of marriage, I finally convinced my wife to start playing golf.  She is addicted to playing golf and she won rookie of the year for the 9-holers at our club.  She's made so many friends and is loving it to the hilt.  Yesterday we went out on the "big" course at our club.  Although my wife wasn't going to tee off on the first hole by the clubhouse, she teed it up on the 2nd and though struggled, enjoyed her day on the course as usual.  I thought I could finally engage her in a conversation about golf architecture, the famous holes on the course and the history.  I started doing so and my wife immediately stopped me and said, "I'm trying to concentrate on my own game and all this talk of architecture and bunkers and stuff is just getting in the way.  I don't want to talk about the bunker evolutions, I want nothing to do with the bunkers.  Stop telling me about the architecture and just let me know if I am lined up right."  Dejected, I spent the remainder of our round together making sure she was lined up right and helping her read the greens.  I should have brought it up before she started playing.  Oh well, there's always GCA.com  ;)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 07:36:45 AM by Wayne Morrison »

David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2007, 07:55:38 AM »
If the non-golfer is anything like my wife, there's not much you can say. A few years ago we were in Boston visiting my brother. He took me to The Country Club, and my wife made fun of me for going to see "special grass and dirt." No matter how much I told her about the place and its history, she still thinks all courses are the same...i.e. they all have grass, sand, and a hole somewhere.

I told her I would never ask her to play the game or even watch it with interest, as long as she never asked me to stop playing the game or watching it with interest. That seems to be a good agreement.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2007, 10:12:59 AM »
Well I can score one for my better half.

When my wife and I were in Southern Cali earlier this year, just for kicks we took the scenic route one day and drove by Trump National.  We stopped in, looked around a bit, used the restrooms which were "Trumped-out-to-the-max", and checked out a few of the golf holes.  As we're driving out we see one of those massive fake waterfalls and my wife says this beauty.

"I just don't get it, why did they spend all that money on fake waterfalls.  They look so tacky and out of place.  Its a golf course not a gardens"

I was a proud papa.....err well not that, but you know what I mean.   ;)

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2007, 11:10:23 AM »
-Stay with nine hole courses for a while.

-If you're robust and healthy and someone comes out to the parking lot to pick up your bag, leave.

-If you never felt a sense of adventure during the round, don't return.

-If you had fun, try and remember what caused it. If you didn't, see the above.

-Remember Johnny Cochran- "If there's too much glitz, it probably sh**z"
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 11:12:11 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Peter Pallotta

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2007, 11:35:05 AM »
Mike
I think I might say, "If you're walking through a pretty bit of nature, just letting your feet and your instincts lead you around, and you see me going in basically the same direction as you while hitting a white ball with a metal stick for 4 1/2 hours, you're probably experiencing some good golf course architecture".

Peter

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2007, 11:44:19 AM »
My mate who I introduced to golf went by tigers yardages but he hits if futher!

He finds it hard to break 100 but hits a sand wedge 160 .
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 11:44:55 AM by Matthew Hunt »

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2007, 11:51:08 AM »
I have converted many non-golfers to the game.

Architecture, per se, doesn't tend to come up in the early discussion, other than the notion that 1.) Golf is a game that in essence is hitting a ball with a stick. What differentiates it from other stick/ball games is that you don't run, you don't pass, you're trying to get the ball from one point to another in the least number of "hits," and you use a bunch of different sticks 2.) All the different clubs in the bag (the sticks) exist for the purpose of hitting the ball a bunch of different ways - high, short, less high, longer, etc. 3.) There's a bunch of different ways to hit each one of those clubs, to get a variety of different results from each club. 4.(here's where the architecture comes in) The golf course exists to provide a variety of challenges to test your ability to hit those different shots with those different sticks (the waterfalls are just a bonus).

Bottom line, though, I don't know that telling the non-golfer anything does much. Getting them out on the course is what matters, and what works.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Gib_Papazian

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2007, 04:45:53 PM »
I try never to cast pearls at swine and explain the allure of this ridiculous obsession. It is futile because you either "get it" or you do not. If pressed, usually by an annoying bore trying to make conversation at a cocktail party, I respond by loosely reciting the following definitive quote:


"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime in which you may exhaust yourself but never your subject.

It is a contest, a duel, or a melee calling for courage,skill,strategy and self control. It is a test of temper, a revealer of character. It affords a chance to play the man and act the gentleman.

It means going into God's out-of-doors, getting close to nature, fresh air, exercise, the sweeping away of mental cobwebs, genuine recreation of tired tissues.

It is a cure for care an antidote to worry. It includes companionship with friends, social intercourse, opportunity for courtesy, kindliness and generosity to an opponent. It promotes not only physical health but moral force."







Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2007, 04:59:01 PM »
I don't even bother anymore, and when someone finds out I play and is interested in picking-up the game, I generally dissuade it.

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 04:59:12 PM by Brad Swanson »

John Kavanaugh

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2007, 05:04:49 PM »
I rarely talk to non-golfers but the last guy who brought it up seemed interested.  Rather than try to explain it I asked him for his address so I could send him a set of clubs to give him a start.  He asked me why I would do such a thing and I simply said.."That is what golfers do."  i bet he gets it now.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2007, 06:24:17 PM »
When I tell people I am a golf course architect, I usually hear "I didn't know anyone did that, I thought courses just sort of appeared."  So, telling them there is some design involved is usually numero uno.

I have had the cup rotation discussion, as well as the how do they get the grass so short discussion.

Then, I have had to explain why bunkers look like big boobs.  (couldn't really say why, actually)

I also get asked how I get my projects and how I envision the routing on a piece of paper the next most often.  (Answer to both - "When I figure it out, I will let you know!)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Gib_Papazian

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2007, 08:50:36 PM »
There are many steps from the initial puppy love phase to cavalier impatience with pinheads who don't really care, but have pigeonholed you as a "golfer" and therefore incapable of conversation on any other topic.

When somebody discovers Christianity - just to pull a religion out of the hat - there is an initial tendency to be fanatical about it. To talk about Jesus, the quote the scriptures, to spread the gospel.

Golf architecture is very similar in my view - and like newfound Christians, there is a breathless tendency to view all aspects of life through a prism of belief in Christ.

At this point, golfers and Christians will talk all day and night about their favorite obsession to the exclusion of all else because it defines *who* they are as much as *what.*

However, in order to achieve true enlightenment, you must first evolve beyond prosaic recitations of birdies and tales of grief and woe at the capricious hands of the golf gods. Only then, when you achieved a state of equilibrium and perspective, can the study of architecture be undertaken.

By this point, like my father-in-law, who has been preaching from  the pulpit for nearly fifty years, you are immune from the temptation of running around with a megaphone screaming "Jesus Loves You!"

He just waits patiently for the fish to come to him, knowing that everything comes in its time and not one moment before.

Personally, I long ago ran short of patience - even to explain golf to a sincerely interested person. To go fifty stories up the food chain and try and explain the brilliance of the Redan to a non-player requires more than I have at the moment.

For years I wrote column after column - some of them terrific if I don't say so myself - trying to "educate" my readership about architecture and "reading a golf course."

Oh, I think 5% of my loyal readers got a lot out of it, but the majority just wanted to read something light, entertaining and amusing.

For years, I would do an annual "Golf History and Trivia Quiz," loaded with questions about old architects and obscure history.     The same 9 guys would score perfect or miss one at most - the rest were just guessing. After a few years, I gave up and wrote questions like this:

Who won the Masters last year?

A. Tiger Woods
B. Tiger Prawns
C. Jumbo Ozaki
D. Bebe Rebozo

The point is that almost nobody cared about architecture, so I quit writing about it and just tried to be funny and snide instead. Reader response went off the charts.

So, when somebody asks me about golf architecture, I play dumb and change the topic to pussy or college football.

I see there are a few - including Wayne - who got their wives to play golf, but not grasp the design aspect. In my case, it is quite opposite. The Redhead is a design savant with a frightening eye  for golf architecture - all gleaned from being a lurker (sometime posting) and living with me. She has heard Neal and Tommy and Shivas in our living room often enough to actually walk a course and guess what numerical rating I am thinking - even in half and quarter points.

Uncanny really, but she is the exception to all rules, not just this one. If she were to start jabbering golf design to her girlfriends - even the ones who play - they would have her committed.  
 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 08:59:02 PM by Gib Papazian »

Kyle Harris

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2007, 08:52:37 PM »
Talking about golf architecture with a non-golfer is about 80% listening.

It's amazing how much simple motivation and inspiration can come from someone who knows absolutely nothing about golf.

I never scoff at a seemingly dumb question, because after all, this is a pretty ridiculously stupid game.

Mike_Cirba

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2007, 08:56:33 PM »
-Stay with nine hole courses for a while.

-If you're robust and healthy and someone comes out to the parking lot to pick up your bag, leave.

-If you never felt a sense of adventure during the round, don't return.

-If you had fun, try and remember what caused it. If you didn't, see the above.

-Remember Johnny Cochran- "If there's too much glitz, it probably sh**z"

Jim,

Classic.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2007, 10:45:35 PM »
This is all good stuff, but not what I was thinking about.

I'm not trying to convert anyone or even talk "golf architecture".
Frankly I rarely talk golf unless it is initiated by someone else who knows what I do.

This person was extremely bright but didn't know a whiff.  I wasn't trying to get him on a course or talk him into giving it a try.

With that one question he seemed to understand how much more complex the game could be.  It reminded me that there are many things I take for granted -- what are some others?

The only other thing that comes to mind about the game is that it is 3-4 hours spent with someone talking and walking outside and breathing.  Quite a pleasant experience for me, even if it isn't so for many a club thrower.

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 10:46:58 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Gib_Papazian

Re:What to tell a non-golfer about golf architecture?
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2007, 10:57:24 PM »
Mike,

Just pass him over a copy of "The Links" by Robert Hunter and it will all become clear.

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