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Kalen Braley

Unusual bunker implementation??
« on: October 27, 2007, 11:42:24 AM »
I recently took some pictures of the Lakes Course at Mountain Dell in the SLC area.  While the course has some neat holes, an interesting layout, and spectacular mountain views, I'm not really sure what to make of the bunker implementation at the par 4, 6th hole.

The hole is routed over a fairly flat meadow and includes an "elevated" bunker that runs along the right hand side for the last two hundred yards to the green.  The right side of th4e bunker is made of a wood retaining wall thats about 4 feet tall.  While I've seen similar type construction on holes that butt up to water hazards, I can't say I've ever seen anything like this before.  Have any of you?  Additionally, any theories on why the architect would do this?






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Bill Brightly

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2007, 12:16:37 PM »
The word "gross" comes to mind. Probably seemed like a good idea at the time...
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Matt_Cohn

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2007, 12:44:32 PM »
I have 3 issues with it.

#1, the result is a bunker with zero lip on it. Not much of a hazard for a good player in particular.

#2, it's funny looking on what appears to be a beautiful site.

#3, a low runner hit to the right could easily end up stymied against the boards. Talk about an unenjoyable recovery shot.
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Jim Sweeney

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2007, 03:18:40 PM »
As a pure guess, I would say:

1) This bunker is not original to the course

2) The depressed area to the left of the bunker is a drainage area that remains quite wet for long periods of time, and so:

3) Someone had the ingenious idea of highlighting the edge of the fairway with a bunker, possibly thinking doing so would enhance the difficuty and beauty of the hole, and when faced with having to deal with the drainage area, wouldn't let the idea go and forced the bunker on the hole using the retaining wall, with predictacble results.

Of course, that is all conjecture.

As far as the rules go, generally such a retaining wall would be considered integral to the course, thus no relief without penalty. The committee could declare it an immoveable obstruction ( I would vote for such a designation for daily play) and a player would get free relief for interference with stance, swing, and lie of ball (but not line of flight.)
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Moe Norman

Marty Bonnar

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2007, 07:26:13 PM »
I'd love to hear the architect discuss his design rationale for this feature. Anyone know who it was?

FBD.
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James Bennett

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2007, 07:52:22 PM »
I appreciate the fact that it is a diagonal hazard.

James B
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Bill Brightly

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2007, 07:58:44 PM »
Opened in 1990

Course Designer: William Neff
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Bill Brightly

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2007, 08:01:05 PM »
I wonder how it would look if you took out the wood and filled in the rest of the swale with sand and made it a really big hazard?
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Marty Bonnar

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2007, 08:08:29 PM »
Thanks Bill,
according to Wikipedia there's an anaesthesiologist, a radiologist and a coupla lawyers called William Neff.

Mr Neff, please tell us you're none of the above...

FBD.

PS My thoughts exactly on 'taking out the wood'. Odd, coming from a good presbyterian boy... ;)

FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2007, 08:56:00 PM »
Martin,

There were actually two unrelated Bill Neff's in ASGCA!

Another possibility for that is it was going to be a lake, but no one did soil tests to confirm it would hold water, or to find out there was rock below, and it was abandoned, sadly, after the bunker had been built.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2007, 10:09:43 PM »
Do they remove the Tonka trucks at sundown or leave them in overnight?
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Brock Peyer

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 10:11:28 PM »
It looks like they forgot to install a lake!!!
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Bill Brightly

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 10:19:07 PM »
Jeff, you are being kind (sort of...) to a fellow GCA, but putting water where the bunker is wouldn't be a "lake." It would be a really big puddle.

Check out the picture, looks like they have a pretty decent lake in the background! It is beautiful.

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Kalen Braley

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2007, 12:58:18 PM »
Mr. Neff is no longer with us.

http://www.uga.org/awards/hallfame/neff_w.html

Its not clear from this link if he designed all 36 holes at this facility or just 18 of them.

As for the location, its sits in a Mountain valley of sorts and the lake seen in the background is actually a resovoir.  It is a nice location but I doubt a hazard was meant to be built right next to it as the 5th hole runs in that direction.

It very much could be an instance of taking a chance at trying something new for innovation sakes.  

Back to the original question though, has anyone seen anything like this, or is it an original in Desmond Muirhead style.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 12:59:51 PM by Kalen Braley »
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Michael Dugger

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2007, 06:01:02 PM »
Ugliest thing I've ever seen.

The soul of golf is shrieking, can you hear it?
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike Hendren

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2007, 07:59:49 PM »
Quote from: Michael Dugger on October 29, 2007, 06:01:02 PM
Ugliest thing I've ever seen.

The soul of golf is shrieking, can you hear it?

What would the soul of golf scream when gazing upon the band of sleepers right of the 14th green at Rye?  Anyone have a photo?

Mike
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 08:02:27 PM by Michael_Hendren »
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Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2007, 07:42:47 AM »
It looks to me like it is an engineered solution to a flooding problem.
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Jeffrey Prest

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2007, 09:50:29 AM »
You sure it wasn't William Naff...?

[English vernacular gag: may not travel well]
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Kalen Braley

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2007, 11:55:08 AM »
Quote from: Michael_Stachowicz on October 30, 2007, 07:42:47 AM
It looks to me like it is an engineered solution to a flooding problem.

Michael,

I doubt this is the case because there is no place for a flood to come from.  The entire course sits in a mountain meadow/ravine and just uphill from this hole there is a road that is several feet below the grade of the golf courses where "flood" waters would be swept away on.
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Tommy Williamsen

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2007, 12:09:19 AM »
Given the terrain it must be one big cat box for one big cat.
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Lester George

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2007, 04:10:13 PM »
It seems to me this architect may have run out of all other terribly ugly ideas and this was all he could come up with.  

Don't mean to pile on or be rude, but this may be the one of the worst looking implementations of a bunker I can recall.

Blissful!

Lester
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Kyle Harris

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2007, 05:14:43 PM »
So, how does it play?
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Kalen Braley

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2007, 05:24:15 PM »
The hole plays fine as far as I can tell.  Its got a couple of options to it.  Play out left to avoid the bunker/sandbox, but this will take driver out of your hands because you can drive thru the fairway into the trees.  Or you can hit driver and take a more aggressive line over the bunker for a short shot in.  The tee box is behind and to the right of from where I took the first two pics.

If you go in the bunker you could face a longish bunker shot in and have to carry a decent amount of the bunker to get to the hole.  And if you go right of the bunkers you would likely be better off as the rough is not too long.  As for me, I hit 3 wood to the fairway and then a 9 iron into the green.  But it really presents more challenges off the tee as the approach in is pretty straight forward.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 05:25:19 PM by Kalen Braley »
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Mike Nuzzo

Re:Unusual bunker implementation??
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2007, 07:52:08 PM »
Jeff,
Why doesn't the society list past members on their site?
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